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Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

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Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#141

Post by Melting_Harps »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #57
manfredo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make student loans no longer exempt from bankruptcy. The rationale for making student loans persist through bankruptcy is that students could just declare bankruptcy after graduation, since they probably have no assets. Maybe make the exemption only last 10-15 years. The permanence of student loans means lenders have no qualms against writing loans for people who will likely not be able to pay them off for decades, o…

>The permanence of student loans means lenders have no qualms against writing loans for people who will likely not be able to pay them off for decades, or ever. Worse, lenders write, and universities accept applications for people they know statistically 99.999% they will not get past the first year.

> Worse, lenders write, and universities accept applications for people they know statistically 99.999% they will not get past the first year.

Sounds like the subprime mortgage scam by the banks, given that they know the US government is going to subsidize the 'losses' and they will have extracted their profit one way or another. Anyone who thinks Socialism is some de-facto virtuous ideal needs to see that collusion between State and X happens in just about every Industry already for private largess. And often is sanctioned, regulated or at least likely to have light to no punishment if caught: see banking fraud.

I honestly want COVID to make the University model obsolete, it will have been worth it if people see how nebulous and impractical the absurd expenses when in reality you can do 75% of courses online anyway; its entirely a predatory model. This is such a drag on young people's lives to have 50k+ in debt in your 20s and are some how sold the idea that you are 'making it' by working to pay that off just to get some entry level position you could have done with a 1-2 year apprenticeship by the time you were 16 like they do in many Germanic Countries.

It's absurd to think this model can go on, and as you mentioned the pernicious statistic rates they are worse because not only is it short sighted thinking that doesn't add value to Society, it can only extract it from those least likely to afford it.

I got honors and letters of recommendations while I was in my undergrad and the only time I ever too them out were to show employers when I applied/interviewed for jobs, and most didn't care either; otherwise they sat in a desk in an envelope as they're reminders of time poorly spent in something I had no interest in by the time I was a sophomore and would come to hate entirely but couldn't get out of until I was 26 due to the debt.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#142

Post by Melting_Harps »

manfredo wrote: post #138
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not failing to explain anything, what you're explaining isn't a hard concept and everyone understands what you're saying. We're just saying: it doesn't work/nor does it make sense. > Allowing student loans to be resolved through bankruptcy after 10-15 years is enough time so that most graduates have assets, and are probably looking for a mortgage on a home in the near future. Going through bankruptcy at 30 or…

Yes, the 30+ year olds have to make the tough decision of defaulting on their loans and severely limiting their ability to secure loans in the future, vs. continuing to work towards paying off their student loans. If there was no repercussion to defaulting on loans why would anyone ever pay off a loan? This is precisely why it makes sense to restrict ability to default on student loans for a certain duration. Even if…

> If there was no repercussion to defaulting on loans why would anyone ever pay off a loan?

> Are you joking? Do you not realize that any current problems were caused by the current system?

What's even more telling is how that all happened when I was in school, prior to my JR year defaulting on student debt was what most did when they got to the professional levels and secured a decent job--and this was back when university costs were much lower and more broadly available, too.

I've had several boomer aged physicians/surgeons/anesthesiologists/lawyers laugh about it when I was in motorsports and told us to explore it despite the stigma as it 'paid in the end.'

In many ways I think this predatory model of extracting wealth from the youth is not only short sighted its absurd; reducing the quality of life with underemployment/unemployment creates lost generations like they have in Japan, and unless the goal is to lower the population at all costs then not much 'good' comes out of it except Zombie banks, high national//coprprate debt ratios, mass impoverishment of Society as a whole and suicide as proved by the last 30 years of Japanese Sociological observations.

Then again, some study using Machine Learning was stated to have had 'break through' results identifying India was not in poverty, only to see that Apple factory workers were paid $7/month instead of the ~$100 and proceeded to smash the factory.

Are people still in doubt we live in a Dystopic Cyberpunk existence already? Its not just an overly hyped game, its clear to see we've been in one for over a decade now. Its just not all neon, robotic enhancements and flying cars; everything else seems to be lock step with the genre from an untouchable Corporate Class, decaying environment, to poor living standards, wide spread disease and poverty.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#143

Post by imtringued »

sct202 wrote: post #56
randomdata wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Continue to remind people that incomes have held stagnant with the rise of post secondary education – Meaning that the promise of higher incomes as a result of higher education from decades ago never materialized. The vast majority of students are only taking on these loans because they have been lead to believe that their income will increase, more than offsetting the cost of the loan. But we know very well now that…

It is detrimental to an individual to decide to sit out the whole educational arms race of degrees and credentials. I agree it would be better overall if people didn't have to go thru it. But for a single person to decide to sit it out, they're shutting themselves out of a lot of high paying jobs that only recruit college graduates. You can be successful as a high school graduate, but it's a lot easier to get your fo…

If the degree is economically useful it will be easy to acquire.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#144

Post by imtringued »

rconti wrote: post #62
pclmulqdq wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These loans have destroyed any chance that a generation of underprivileged students will achieve financial prosperity. If they go away, the federally subsidized loan programs will likely be phased out over ~5 years or so. The private sector will replace them for students who are good bets, probably with income-share agreements or something similar and MUCH less predatory than the current federal loan programs.

>The private sector will replace them for students who are good bets, probably with income-share agreements or something similar and MUCH less predatory than the current federal loan programs. [Citation needed] We already know who the "good bets" are. They're the rich kids. And if you think "income sharing" and the private sector will drive rates down from a federally-subsidized ("predatory") rate, well, I don't know…

You can trivially add the inefficiency you so desire by letting the government only cover part of the loan up to a set amount. If the government only guarantees loans up to 30k you can still get an additional 30k loan at your own risk to pay for a 60k degree.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#145

Post by imtringued »

bluGill wrote: post #24
snarf21 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should start limiting tuition by making it be tied to the first year salary of students graduating from the same school with the same degree. If you want federal money, that is the rule. And room/board must be optional, you can't be forced to live on campus.

Is college a form of jobs training or a way to make yourself better? There is the disconnect, because both are true in different amounts for different people. If it is just jobs training you are correct. We shouldn't have "under water basket weaving" type courses because there is no market for that. There is some need for art, but only in the context of art is useful to make better marketing materials, so the degree…

If you take on a loan for college then you better hope you get a job out of it. If you want a degree with no economic prospects then you can just pay for it yourself. Remember college used to be an upper class thing where people chose their education freely precisely because they already had the ability to support themselves.

There is the other factor that a worker without a degree in the USA is partially redundant. A lot of jobs that do not require a degree can and have been moved to other countries. You are free to move there and work at your low skilled job there. There is a lot of demand there but not in the USA. You can chalk this up to an incompetent government or central bank but the reality is that as an individual you have no power over this and therefore an economic degree is your best bet.

The alternative to connecting college with the job market is to introduce a job training program inspired by Germany and let people enter a three year job training program in exchange for lower wages. That ship for this has sailed a long time ago. Now that college has been burned into the minds of everyone it will take decades to reverse the trend even if you start today with full force. Germany still has the lowest youth unemployment rate in the EU and is in the top 4 world wide.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#146

Post by imtringued »

nrclark wrote: post #125
gregario wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they tax 8% higher than USA's highest tax state? > affordable healthcare, education, and government-backed pensions Affordable healthcare, education, and pensions are wonderful things and I want them as well. It's immoral to provide them through the federal government though, it should be done privately through the market.

Why is it immoral for the government to provide that stuff? What makes private industry better in any way?

When you consider that there is no limit to the size of a company it is pretty obvious why monopolies form. A lot of markets only really need one company that provides a service or product for the entire economy. With healthcare it is extremely obvious that having one provider is beneficial because you want everyone to be on the same health insurance plan. The problems are that monopolies usually abuse their power so you need put it in control of an accountable entity such as the government.

Consider it from a different perspective: CEOs don't become billionaires because they are multiple times more productive or competent than other people but rather because there is no need for a second equally competent CEO. One CEO is enough to serve an entire market and so all the market power concentrates in the hand of the CEO who can then abuse it for his benefit.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#147

Post by imtringued »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #49
theevilsharpie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if schools could accurately estimate the "value" of a degree based on expected future earnings, that estimate is going to be affected by a potential student's employability, and the risk that the student may not complete the program. "Tie student loan funding to the value of a degree" is a fantasy. In the real world, what would actually happen is that student loans would become limited to those who could put up…

If the goal is to provide the non wealthy with the ability to attend higher education facilities, then scholarships or grants or taxpayer funding for the school is the proper method. Giving out blank check loans with no underwriting standards does not help the non wealthy. It results in what has already happened in the US, schools collect as much tuition money as they can since why not, and the non wealthy end up ind…

This is also the same reason that payday loans are predatory. You are giving someone a loan who has been rejected by all other credit institutions. The only reason why you are giving that person a loan is because you want to take advantage of their weaknesses and make a profit out of their misery.

The only real way to help is by giving out money that they don't have to pay back.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#148

Post by imtringued »

zaroth wrote: post #98
lotsofpulp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The deal between the government and private colleges is that those private colleges are training our critical workforce and adding net value back into the system by increasing lifetime earnings and economic growth. Source? As far as I can tell, some genius politicians figured out they can lower taxes or keep taxes low by removing and reducing taxpayer funding for colleges, and replacing it with free non dischargeab…

I think the problem is not a lack of funding. Economically, the more you spend on a problem like this, the less you get back for every dollar spent. This isn’t a manufacturing problem where cost decreases with scale. Throwing more dollars at this will just decrease the average outcome per dollar. A part of the problem is just the notion that everyone should even be going to two or four year university. > In 2017, sta…

>A part of the problem is just the notion that everyone should even be going to two or four year university.

That would require structural reforms to fix the economy or to provide an alternative education path that is tied to economic productivity. In other words it is not going to happen.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#149

Post by randomdata »

imtringued wrote: post #143
sct202 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is detrimental to an individual to decide to sit out the whole educational arms race of degrees and credentials. I agree it would be better overall if people didn't have to go thru it. But for a single person to decide to sit it out, they're shutting themselves out of a lot of high paying jobs that only recruit college graduates. You can be successful as a high school graduate, but it's a lot easier to get your fo…

If the degree is economically useful it will be easy to acquire.

And funded by investors seeking to capture the economic gains made from it. That students are resorting to having to take out loans to fund their hobby shows it is only that.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#150

Post by gbronner »

Perfect price discrimination. Colleges at the top are a near monopoly - Harvard is a good substitute for Yale, but very few people can be in position to buy either.

One level down, the colleges price it using yield management strategies that would make airlines blush.

Apart from reforming federal student loans, ensuring that at least 75% of students pay the same price would stop some of the crazy pricing strategies

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