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Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

reuters.com

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Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#221
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything else is better done as knobs and buttons. Apple is quite good at knobs and buttons, and what may eventually become interior finishes.

When they decide to implement a hardware control, it's usually done well. But their records is hit-and-miss in my opinion. Good: iPod click wheel, iPhone side buttons/switches, old chiclet keyboards, trackpad. Bad: Butterfly keyboards, AppleTV remote is awful (swipes and edge-clicks for all sorts of things), their mice have always been a pain to use (wanna right click? Better lift your left finger completely away fro…

I hadn't thought about this until your comment. While I think Apple building a car is... dubious (both the idea that they would and that they should even if they can), I'd been thinking "well, at least Apple is good at UI," but I really don't like Tesla-esque touchscreen-for-everything auto interfaces, and that would be a serious temptation for Apple.

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#222

The matter really turns on the rate of progress of Tesla technology vs. Apple (or anyone else). Tesla's lead is large enough that the established auto companies still (as far as I've seen) don't have compelling strategies for closing the gap. As a technology company, Apple comes at the issue from a different perspective, and arguably, one with much more overlap to Musk, et al. Batteries are notoriously difficult to i…

^^^ this.

As others have pointed out (and some disagreed with), Apple has capital, supply-chain expertise, patience, and a dogmatic focus on the whole experience. In a realm where technology is increasingly a driver of the experience (no pun intended), cars start to make some sense.

But the battery claim... I just can't imagine a universe where Tesla isn't aware of the same hard-science. I'd love to be surprised though.

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#223

This is starting to make increasingly more sense even though Apple making a car seemed laughable a few years ago. Apple is fundamentally now a company that can move immense amounts of capital into new industries with the underlying ethos of user experience. Apple Card was perhaps a dipping of the toes moment. In theory, Tesla shouldn't be worth what it is because the tech behind it is increasingly getting commoditize…

Apple's brand is too feminine. An Apple car sounds as manly as a VW Golf Convertible. To Tesla's credit, they have maintained a more masculine image. Don't laugh...people see cars as extensions of their own physical presence, a "gay" car won't sell

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#224
post #71
post #6

The Tesla Model 3 already embodies the minimalism, software focus, and vertical integration that have driven Apple's success in the phone market. Right down to the custom SoC and capacitive touchscreen in lieu of buttons. I'm really curious what Apple's differentiators will be. Also, 2024 still seems aggressive to deploy self-driving for real.

I know I am not alone in this, but I absolutely cannot stand touch screens in cars, and would like for this trend to reverse. It is hard to navigate without physically looking at the screen, which is a huge safety hazard while driving.

For some things, like navigation and settings, I absolutely love a touch screen. For other things, like wiper control in the Model 3, I definitely do not like it and it is worse.

I think this might just come down to personal preference. After owning a Model 3 for a while now, I can't stand my Audi (or other cars) that aren't touch screens. There are far too many buttons and dials. It is overwhelming (and ugly to me). The non-touch UIs are clunky and confusing and often far more distracting for me as I try to figure them out.

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine that it didn't stand up to very extensive lab testing, before getting approved for mass production across Apple's laptops. It would be very interesting to hear some inside accounts about what went wrong there. I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that the mass-produced parts didn't quite measure up to the prototypes, whether because of less consistent materials, part manufacturing defects, slightly…

What was even worse was the usual Apple cycle of deny there's an issue, begrudgingly acknowledge that it "may" be an issue, and then tout a new, improved version that fixed things and resolved the problem (and then didn't - how many iterations of the butterfly are we on now?).

> and then didn't [resolve the problem] - how many iterations of the butterfly are we on now?

Uh, the butterfly isn't used in Apple keyboards anymore. They reverted to the old scissor switch design some time ago.

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#227
Is this focus on EV cars in general slightly unjustified? What's the evidence for the increased demand for EV cars post-pandemic? The way i see it, remote work will revolutionize the life of ~40% of the population , turning the car to an accessory that will be used much, much less in cities. For getaways outside cities, the autonomy of an ICE car is much appreciated. Battery trucks may be in high demand, but those don't fit with apple's (high-spender) demographic

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#228

This is starting to make increasingly more sense even though Apple making a car seemed laughable a few years ago. Apple is fundamentally now a company that can move immense amounts of capital into new industries with the underlying ethos of user experience. Apple Card was perhaps a dipping of the toes moment. In theory, Tesla shouldn't be worth what it is because the tech behind it is increasingly getting commoditize…

> 'In theory, Tesla shouldn't be worth what it is'

With all due respect, I would like to articulate and counter your point with some insights.

Tesla as it stands today at ~$600B is priced at monopoly status - that they have 'won' the next decade in transportation and electrification. Whether you buy into that or not, consider the following:

- Tesla is the first (and so far only) company that has successfully been able to produce electric vehicles with positive gross margins at scale. No other competitors have scaled (yet) and EVs made from traditional automakers have been sold thus far at negative gross margins (i.e. each one that leaves the lot costs thousands or more dollars at a loss). While Tesla 'just broke out' as a stock in 2020, starting with large cash-flow generation from their factory in China - they have been working at this for well over 5 years. The real challenge for everyone making EVs is scale, and depending on how you slice it, Tesla is - really, really far ahead regarding their head start. (Model 3 was ANNOUNCED in 2016 and first cars were produced and delivered in 2017. Look at this announcement today end of 2020, and car production in 2024 - not even accounting for scale. This is really hard to do.)

- Your point about commoditized parts is valid in theory. However, as someone in the {renewables} industry who has had many first hand conversations with those buying Li-ion batteries at scale - the little talked about challenge for everyone else in automotive is 'where are you getting your batteries'? Li-ion cell manufacturers are generally broken up into Tier1, Tier2, Tier3 suppliers. From my conversations even pre-pandemic with folks - Tier 1 supplies were already allocated SEVERAL years out. Tier2 supplies are hard to acquire in large volumes as well. That leaves you with 'shitty' Tier3 supplies for which most of those cells are ending up in things like scooters and Energy Storage (not cars). And while some are good, suppliers can be tier 3 either due to small volumes or unreliability (must all be tested, and even still its questionable how many cycles you'll really get). Automakers want Tier 1. Tesla's latest event, 'Battery Day' while 'disappointing' the street and non-industry folks for not announcing some 'Million mile' or other 'groundbreaking technology' is significant because the limitation to Tesla's growth, much like others for making EVs, comes down to batteries. The factories need to be built - and for most of what optimists imagine for a rapidly changing future, many of those shovels have not hit the ground yet on the forward infrastructure. And that isn't even accounting for the fact that it takes at least 1-2 years to get a single cell factory ramped up. And we aren't even talking about the mining capacity (particularly lithium and nickel) that all of these announcements imply already exists.

And back to Tesla's valuation - there is lots of focus on their current valuations assuming they have solved self-driving. There's so much going on with Tesla as a stock (look at Tesla Semi-truck, their Energy Storage businesses for example). And the winks and nods towards launching an uber-like ridesharing service. While I am very skeptical of their ability to have self-driving 'done' in their posted timeframes, I think their value is priced that , whenever it happens - they will be first. So interpret that as you may.

When factoring in the likelihood that they will be the next apple for transportation across personal & commercial transportation for the next 1-2 decades, you can end up at 600B easily. If you are interested in seeing how, just on the driving component - Ark Invest has posted their models if you want to take a deeper read to see if you agree. [1]

And 2 cents on Apple's role & competitive advantages here: They, prior to Tesla were for a while one of the larger single consumers for Li-ion batteries (Macbook, Ipods, iPhones, etc) in electronics. Add in their expertise with battery management and longevity systems (but for systems of a smaller size) combined with their existing supplier relationships & software capabilities, if I had to bet on Apple or one of the existing automotive companies - I'd probably make my bet on Apple purely from a capabilities and competencies perspective.

[1] https://github.com/ARKInvest/ARK-Invest-Tesla-Valuation-Mode...

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently sold my Tesla Model 3 I can say there is a lot to be desired with that car. The biggest lesson from Tesla is that cars are not cellphones. Having one display off to the side, without buttons, that does everything is an awful experience in a car. I hope that Apple learns that lesson. I think if they had gone first they might have made that mistake too, but now that it's been tried they can find interes…

> The biggest lesson from Tesla is that cars are not cellphones. Having one display off to the side, without buttons, that does everything is an awful experience in a car. This is both the most functional and most beautiful design choice I've ever experienced. My favorite part of my Model 3. You quickly come to realize that voice control does everything and that you should never have to reach for a button or fiddle w…

Tesla's touchscreen is so functional it made you change to voice control, you say?

Re: Apple targets car production by 2024, eyes ‘next level’ battery tech: sources

#230
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm also not sure what Apple's edge here is. At this point all I really want out of an entertainment center is a screen for my phone to plug into. Apple has been doing CarPlay for years. If they do at least as well with the rest of the interior they’ll have an edge over most luxury cars today.

I don't think CarPlay is ahead what anyone else is doing, Android Auto works in reality much better than CarPlay, at least with my car. The UX of CarPlay makes much less sense, has less functionality and less safety features than Android Auto. And somehow CarPlay is also inverting the rolling control my car has, just like they do with the scrolling on touch pads.

Having an android and an iphone and had two vehicles with both AA and CarPlay, I can confirm that android auto is a much better experience than carplay.
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