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Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

nytimes.com

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Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#291

Post by sjg007 »

cdjk wrote: post #19
jsperson wrote: post #13

That it takes such effort to pass a bill like this - 80% public approval, banning a clearly predatory practice, has turned me from a pure free market thinking into a believer in single payer healthcare. The free market just doesn't work when there is very little elasticity in consumption. I've been on the receiving end of a $15K air ambulance bill (thankfully covered by insurance) as well as the out of network specia…

The existing health insurance industry is far from free market. Try getting a price for a procedure or visit beforehand. Compare that to dental insurance. I’m always shocked when I get a treatment plant after 5 minutes that outlines exactly what the dentist needs to do, how much insurance will pay, and how much I will need to pay. Of course the set of possible treatments for dental work is a lot smaller, but it seems…

My dentist obscures things... I have msrp then estimated personal contribution. Only later do I get the final negotiated rates. Usually I get money back. Also with a dental PPO to go out of network you have to negotiate yourself! Insurance will only reimburse zip code rates.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#292

Post by amznthrwaway »

unishark wrote: post #261
arcticbull wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free markets generally work better the less leverage one party has over another. When the negotiation is "pay up or die" then it's de facto not a free market [1] and the government has a responsibility to step in and address it. The minimum viable remediation is a two-tier system in which the government takes the "or die" out of the conversation. The best approach IMO is single-payer where the government takes the "p…

Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Especially when I arrive there unconscious. And Herb Cohen would say once you've received the service, you're actually in a great negotiating position. People actually negotiate hospital bills all the time. Especially in those crazy stories you hear about. And you need a citation for your claim about when free markets do and don't wor…

[dead]

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#293

Post by lotsofpulp »

lostapathy wrote: post #259
lotsofpulp wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes perfect sense, assuming your annual deductible was met after you paid your $500 copay. Deductible means you pay for the first $x in a year. After that, your insurer starts paying some portion (your portion is called copay). Then you hit your out of pocket maximum (for in network services), after which insurer pays 100%.

No - I hadn't hit my out of pocket max, by a long shot, even after the second encounter. They could have happened in either order - and the emergency visit would have been MUCH cheaper out of pocket for me.

Then I don't know what definition of deductible your insurance company is using, but it doesn't match my experience with any insurer ever, health or otherwise.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#294

Post by amznthrwaway »

unishark wrote: post #287
arcticbull wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Of course you have. The first thing you did when you walked in was hand them your ID and coverage info. You think hospitals operate on the honor system? As a Canadian I've never been asked to pay up before or after receiving treatment [edit: at the point of care]. And before you jump into taxation, Canadians pay less per capita in t…

> You either have insurance or you're driven into Chapter 11. Further I suspect this is not due to good will but rather government intervention. You really are making a lot of bold assertions. If you declare bankruptcy, the hospital gets zero. Negotiation is a process by which both sides give something to meet in the middle. Yes they do it. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/you-can-negotiate-your-medic...

I can’t believe you’re such a worthless piece of shit that you’re arguing going bankrupt (losing literally everything) is a negotiating tactic that’s fine.

I hope you get badly injured in a remote location, and face a seven figure medical bill upon recovery, you absolutely worthless piece of human garbage.

Fuck you, and fuck the worthless whore you call a mother.

Edit: I hope your mother starves to death, bankrupted by a hospital, and gets to watch as she realizes her child doesn’t care.

She should know that she’s a worthless piece of shit who raised a vile sociopath. She should die feeling shame for having allowed you to live.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#295

Post by [deleted] »

Moodles wrote: post #202

As an immigrant coming to America, honestly the most shocking and surprising thing (apart from the state of homeless in San Francisco being tolerated as normal) is the medical care expenses. How on Earth is it that I can walk into a doctor's office or hospital to get medical treatment and have no idea how much it's going to cost? $10? $100? $1000? Who knows. I had an ear infection once, went to the doctor who looked…

[deleted]

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#296

Post by unishark »

arcticbull wrote: post #273
unishark wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Especially when I arrive there unconscious. And Herb Cohen would say once you've received the service, you're actually in a great negotiating position. People actually negotiate hospital bills all the time. Especially in those crazy stories you hear about. And you need a citation for your claim about when free markets do and don't wor…

> Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Of course you have. The first thing you did when you walked in was hand them your ID and coverage info. You think hospitals operate on the honor system? As a Canadian I've never been asked to pay up before or after receiving treatment [edit: at the point of care]. And before you jump into taxation, Canadians pay less per capita in t…

> The debt was incurred once the service was rendered, and you are now liable. 66.5% of all bankruptcies in the US are medical -- are they just bad negotiators?

The overwhelming vast majority of people have health insurance. However, due to taxation of privately-purchased insurance but not insurance that's a work benefit, people are driven to get insurance through their job. This was the government's fault, by the way. If people lose their job, they lose their insurance along with it. People without jobs have lots of financial problems. If they have a medical problem this situation gets far worse and results in a lot of bankruptcy. You seem to think bankruptcy is worse than negotiating. Clearly, it is often preferred.

As for your oranges question, no.

For the cancer one, possibly.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#297

Post by gotostatement »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #268
mrlala wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How any of you snakes on here can downvote this is beyond me. I mean, I know who you are. People who have a great job and don't really have to worry about insurance. Or maybe at a university where insurance is probably covered well. So f everyone else, right? I am self employed so I have to worry about paying all this shit myself; 11k family deductible with 40% co-insurance for $1200. Every time my young kids have ha…

I have no great job and I am paying more than 50% in taxes, including health care (not an insurance, but a payroll tax) that I get almost nothing from. That great change described in the article is bringing poor services to everyone, that is the end of it - I saw it in Eastern Europe, I saw it in Western Europe, but people don't want to talk about it. I live in Eastern Europe, decades in a socialist country and decad…

> socialized healthcare and that dream of free healthcare for all is an impossible utopia, you just need to think about it to realize

I can't understand this argument when Canada, England, France, Israel, and many other countries already have healthcare that is totally free to people at the point of service, and people rave about it. Can you explain why you still think it's utopian when it already exists?

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#298

Post by lotsofpulp »

uoaei wrote: post #211
cpuguy83 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The annoying thing is, most people would agree that the whole system sucks... until you start talking about politics and suddenly you'd think a bunch of people have a love affair with their insurance company and healthcare providers.

> until you start listening to politicians who have a vested interest in making the general public believe such things FTFY People "love their health insurance" when they have it forever through their employment, and feel safe in their position. 80% of people in the US, including 50% of Republicans, support M4A precisely because they are not part of the upper-crust minority who are afforded such luxuries.

I've never heard of a prominent Republican politician voice support for taxpayer funded healthcare. It would require a significant increase in federal income/FICA taxes. And in the enormous portion of federal spending that Medicare/Medicaid is, it doesn't even include outpatient services/medications for everyone over 65.

Of course, this would be mitigated by the elimination of health insurance premiums and other redundancies, but a federal taxpayer funded solution would result in a more transparent wealth transfer, whereas the employer sponsored tax deductible health insurance gimmick allows for better discrimination on who receives healthcare, and ideally reduces the amount of wealth transfer by reducing the healthcare many people receive.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#299

Post by wil421 »

nottorp wrote: post #27
lordnacho wrote: post #11

> Surprise bills happen when an out-of-network provider is unexpectedly involved in a patient’s care. Patients go to a hospital that accepts their insurance, for example, but get treated there by an emergency room physician who doesn’t. Such doctors often bill those patients for large fees, far higher than what health plans typically pay. How do courts uphold this? You go to a restaurant, they say you can buy the tas…

From what I know about the US even your restaurant example has hidden service fees and mandatory tips and taxes that aren't on the menu?

No hidden service fees. Taxing is not so simple in the US. My county has a lower sales tax rate than other counties around me. When I worked as a waiter the municipality had a special tax on alcohol in addition to the county and states alcohol and regular sales taxes.

Re: Congress is set to ban most surprise medical bills

#300

Post by mLuby »

[US]: "Stop the surprise prices!"

[Hospitals]: "Okay, here's our menu of services: Saline $300, Specialist Consultation (20min) $1K, Ambulance Ride $15K."

[Health Insurers]: "If you join our club and pay dues, you get exclusive menu prices: saline $15, consultation $50, ambulance $200."

The problem is different people being charged dramatically different prices to continue living, because of which health insurance (if any) they have, and not being able to change that fact (except once a year).

The solution is that hospitals—and IMO businesses in general—must not charge different prices to different groups of customers (which single payer accomplishes, as I understand it).

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