Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition • Hacker News Board

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#31

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #25

djsumdog wrote: post #4

> cut its tuition by $10,000 for all new students I find it insane tuition is that high. I finished grad school before 2010, and at least with the smaller state schools I went to, total cost of tuition and books was in the $3k~$5k range. Boutique schools like Vanderbilt were like $25k+ (per semester). I had a friend who got a free ride there for graduate school, and he said it wasn't really that different than our st…

>Federally subsidized student loans need to GO AWAY. They've allowed students to enter into debt, the only long term contracts kids under 18 can legally sign, for something they can never declare bankruptcy on. I think that's something that many people would agree with, but how do we go forward with making that happen?

[deleted]

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#32

Post by mattbk1 » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #2

We need to just move past the college model. They’re just expensive certification programs at best, in terms of utility. The actual teaching/learning (which I feel they do a bad job of) and the testing/certifying can be separated from each other and democratized (opened up to competition, made more available). The current costs of college are ridiculous, and a minor 10% tuition cut from the $70K/year cost mentioned i…

What do you do for a living, if I may ask?

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#33

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #25

djsumdog wrote: post #4

> cut its tuition by $10,000 for all new students I find it insane tuition is that high. I finished grad school before 2010, and at least with the smaller state schools I went to, total cost of tuition and books was in the $3k~$5k range. Boutique schools like Vanderbilt were like $25k+ (per semester). I had a friend who got a free ride there for graduate school, and he said it wasn't really that different than our st…

>Federally subsidized student loans need to GO AWAY. They've allowed students to enter into debt, the only long term contracts kids under 18 can legally sign, for something they can never declare bankruptcy on. I think that's something that many people would agree with, but how do we go forward with making that happen?

Running for federal office with that platform, and supporting others that do.

Only problem is you will lose to other politicians that are able to promise lower taxes because giving out federal loans to students is cheaper for taxpayers than giving money to schools directly. People will vote for the person “helping” students by lending them money, rather than the person that has to help students by giving schools money, and therefore raising taxes.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#34

Post by CyberDildonics » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #8

throwawaysea wrote: post #2

We need to just move past the college model. They’re just expensive certification programs at best, in terms of utility. The actual teaching/learning (which I feel they do a bad job of) and the testing/certifying can be separated from each other and democratized (opened up to competition, made more available). The current costs of college are ridiculous, and a minor 10% tuition cut from the $70K/year cost mentioned i…

Top tier colleges (and even state colleges) teach a lot more than what is inside of a book. They teach interpersonal skills, social skills, work ethic, self care, professional networking, etc. I think it is misconception that these schools are respected because they teach the subject matter better, or that they provide no value outside of the lecture hall. If anything, >50% of the value is outside of the lecture hall…

Time and life end up teaching those things because normal interactions end up teaching those things.

This is ascribing four years of interacting with other people to colleges. Four years of work experience in a given job makes someone far more valuable than four years of college preparing to start the same job. College isn't the only place to learn. Art history can be studied as a hobby any time in life.

The idea that using four years to learn english 101 while accumulating massive debt instead of focusing on becoming valuable enough to start working in an industry you want is a destructive mentality. If typical college was much cheaper and more focused there might be more validity to it.

Four years of working earns money instead of bleeding it. You meet people that actually know how to do the things you want to learn instead of guessing at them.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#35

Post by kube-system » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #34

kube-system wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top tier colleges (and even state colleges) teach a lot more than what is inside of a book. They teach interpersonal skills, social skills, work ethic, self care, professional networking, etc. I think it is misconception that these schools are respected because they teach the subject matter better, or that they provide no value outside of the lecture hall. If anything, >50% of the value is outside of the lecture hall…

Time and life end up teaching those things because normal interactions end up teaching those things. This is ascribing four years of interacting with other people to colleges. Four years of work experience in a given job makes someone far more valuable than four years of college preparing to start the same job. College isn't the only place to learn. Art history can be studied as a hobby any time in life. The idea tha…

Vocational schools already exist, if students want to attend one, they already can. Liberal arts schools are very intentionally not that.

It is certainly possible to learn broad range of subjects outside of a structured environment, but it is improbable, which is why we value structured educations.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#36

Post by leecb » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #25

djsumdog wrote: post #4

> cut its tuition by $10,000 for all new students I find it insane tuition is that high. I finished grad school before 2010, and at least with the smaller state schools I went to, total cost of tuition and books was in the $3k~$5k range. Boutique schools like Vanderbilt were like $25k+ (per semester). I had a friend who got a free ride there for graduate school, and he said it wasn't really that different than our st…

>Federally subsidized student loans need to GO AWAY. They've allowed students to enter into debt, the only long term contracts kids under 18 can legally sign, for something they can never declare bankruptcy on. I think that's something that many people would agree with, but how do we go forward with making that happen?

Introduce a ceiling on the total amount of federally subsidized student loans that a person can get in a year. The ceiling steps down every year, until the loans have completely gone down. Start the first ceiling 2 years from now, so students and institutions have time to plan for the change, and complete the phaseout 8 years from now. That's how I'd do it.

As for how you would do it, you'd have to convince your congressional representative that reform is worth doing, and is worth the inevitable political cost to them. Making loans somewhat harder to get will inevitably make universities upset with the politicians (as universities are the ones that actually receive the bulk of the financial benefit from these loans). For this reason, I see this reform as unlikely to happen, at least as I described it. You would have to pair it with more direct funding for universities.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#37

Post by zaroth » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

The deal between the government and private colleges is that those private colleges are training our critical workforce and adding net value back into the system by increasing lifetime earnings and economic growth.

The government guarantee on debt dollars right now is absolute. Schools get paid no matter what, and have no liability for actually providing an ultimately valuable service.

Here’s an alternate arrangement. The school and government together co-guarantee the debt. Students’ monthly payments start 1 year after graduation or after the first year of less than 50% enrollment, payments are strictly calculated based as a percentage of income, and after 10 years of payments the government guarantee is retired. Any remaining balance on the loan then becomes dischargeable in bankruptcy and the school is liable for any unpaid balance.

Or something along that lines. The program should be structured in a way that the government is only guaranteeing debt that is in proportion to the earnings power actually achieved, and the school becomes liable for debt that is out of proportion with the actual earnings power achieved.

Of course it’s a law of averages. Certain students will fail due to no fault of the school but overall a private school should be responsible for providing measurable value in proportion to its tuition charges.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#38

Post by randomdata » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #25

djsumdog wrote: post #4

> cut its tuition by $10,000 for all new students I find it insane tuition is that high. I finished grad school before 2010, and at least with the smaller state schools I went to, total cost of tuition and books was in the $3k~$5k range. Boutique schools like Vanderbilt were like $25k+ (per semester). I had a friend who got a free ride there for graduate school, and he said it wasn't really that different than our st…

>Federally subsidized student loans need to GO AWAY. They've allowed students to enter into debt, the only long term contracts kids under 18 can legally sign, for something they can never declare bankruptcy on. I think that's something that many people would agree with, but how do we go forward with making that happen?

Continue to remind people that incomes have held stagnant with the rise of post secondary education – Meaning that the promise of higher incomes as a result of higher education from decades ago never materialized.

The vast majority of students are only taking on these loans because they have been lead to believe that their income will increase, more than offsetting the cost of the loan. But we know very well now that it doesn't play out in practice. As we educate away those flawed ideas from history, those with profit motive will be scared away, leaving those who are there for education's sake. When only they are left, costs will start to align with what education is actually worth.

Then again, a diamond remains forever, so perhaps you cannot educate the educated.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#39

Post by dogman144 » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #4

> cut its tuition by $10,000 for all new students I find it insane tuition is that high. I finished grad school before 2010, and at least with the smaller state schools I went to, total cost of tuition and books was in the $3k~$5k range. Boutique schools like Vanderbilt were like $25k+ (per semester). I had a friend who got a free ride there for graduate school, and he said it wasn't really that different than our st…

> Federally subsidized student loans need to GO AWAY.

The language I'm about to use pains me, but this is an extremely privileged take, or at least naive take, on what these loans do. Removing them will hurt about about a generation of students from the very low to the upper middle class set until the academicemployment market adjusts. What do I mean?

A simple, pragmatic fact is degree from a name-school, vs. a no-name school, is a differentiator to a student who knows what they're doing. This is especially true with grad schools where it's professionally-focused on the outcome. NYU Law vs. CUNY Law. UMass Dartmouth CS vs. BU CS. You're buying a network and a door opener with the latter. One resume gets you an informational interview, a priv'd coop/internship, an alumni network and so on, and the other has an uphill battle. For many underpriv'd students, that network-buy is life changing. I wish it wasn't the case, but pretending that it isn't is damaging. This is just the way of things at the moment.

By getting rid of fed-sub'd loans, you: - take away motive-neutral funding route for your cheap but no-name undergrad -> good grad school -> good new career - open only profit-motive funding routes from private loan companies, which.... this never works out well for consumers. - open this priv'd route of good schools to increasingly only the elite.

I'd agree with the point that a cheap state school for undergrad, a "known" school for grad school funded by however one can get it funded makes more financialcareer sense, but that nuance didn't exist in your argument.

Re: Some U.S. Colleges Cut Tuition

#40

Post by theevilsharpie » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #21

vorpalhex wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might work for Computer Science where grads can be employed quickly and at very solid wages but it won't meaningfully apply for most fields like business, chemistry or physics.

Then those schools will be disincentivized to charge people for degrees that won't pay for themselves, which is good which will result in more people going into degrees where people can be employed quickly at solid wages, which is good which will result in a scarcity of people going into the fields you mentioned, which will increase the wages in those fields which will incentivize people to go into them this, like mo…

Even if schools could accurately estimate the "value" of a degree based on expected future earnings, that estimate is going to be affected by a potential student's employability, and the risk that the student may not complete the program.

"Tie student loan funding to the value of a degree" is a fantasy. In the real world, what would actually happen is that student loans would become limited to those who could put up some sort of collateral, which for the figures involved involved in a typical college education would largely limit it to the already-wealthy.