Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#81

Post by Kye » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #70

beagle3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not referring to phone lens, although those things are being applied there too. It is now possible to build a telephoto lens for your DSLR, that costs $2 to make, is short and flat, yet has better optics than your current kit. When these become common, it will likely cause another seismic shift in the pure-camera market. Perhaps some of them will actually be bonded with the sensors, unlike what we have today. R…

... can you actually buy this yet?

Metamaterial lenses seem to be the fusion power of photography. Just one breakthrough that might not happen before they're commercially viable.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#82

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

monkeynotes wrote: post #78

formerly_proven wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the moment lens prices are pretty bonkers but I think that Canon f/11 lens is a great indicator; it's basically less than 1/10th of the cost of a traditional 800mm lens and does more than enough for most people. But that tradeoff seems hardly new to me. Consumer 70-300 for ~300 $ vs. Pro 70-200 for 2000+ $. The "only" difference is build quality and the pro lens being 2-3 stops brighter. Price difference: ~10x.

2-3 stops is enormous. Speed of the lens is partially where the additional cost comes from, and professionals are willing to pay for that extra performance - especially sports photographers. It's been a long time since I paid any attention to pro photographic equipment so I don't know if fast lenses are important with modern sensors performing so well in low light. But back in the analog/early digital days 2-3 stops…

The focus motors are just flat out better in expensive lenses. By contrast, I have a $200 Panasonic pancake lens with a terrible focus motor in it. It's slow, noisy, and hunty.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#83

Post by wegs » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 1:55 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

Heartbreaking, but they are a "survivor" company. They have lasted over 100 years, through a world war (including firestorm bombing), earthquakes, fires and tsunamis. They had never been particularly big, until the 1990s, with the advent of point-and-shoot digital cameras. That gravy train ended when the iPhone came out. They are probably contracting to their more traditional role, of Big Black Cameras, as well as so…

> They have some of the finest scientists and engineers in the world, as well as a gigantic portfolio of patents. They aren't going away.

Those are exactly quickly going away. Engineers and scientists need to get paid and want job stability, while patents have a 20-year lifespan.

Nikon was on top of the world in 2008 with the D300 and the D90, but the technologies that made those possible were patented years prior. Right now, the curve is with mirrorless where Sony, Panasonic, and (now defunct) Olympus have a 10-year lead on patents. It's also with smartphones, and those technologies bubbling up. In the deep learning/ML battle, Nikon is bringing a knife to a gunfight.

On the other side, they're having massive layoffs right now. When companies have layoffs, usually they let go the bottom end of the workforce, while the top end leave voluntarily.

Nikon is continuing to patent new lens designs, but so is its competition. Nikon has excellent optics, but so does Olympus, Canon, Fuji, or Sony; they aren't exactly ahead of the pack here.

Sigma has really been pushing the edge on optics.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#84

Post by rob74 » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 1:57 PM UTC

numair wrote: post #43

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they will do the "Apple" thing: "Designed in California."

This is already super-popular among large Japanese companies. Uniqlo was built on that tactic.

I think there are a lot of "first-world" companies that have copied this approach. See also "Design and Quality: IKEA of Sweden. Made in [insert cheap-manufacturing country here]."

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#85

Post by howlgarnish » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #57

Aeolun wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for the Japanese market, not ‘made in Japan’ is a big downgrade in perception.

Big downgrade in quality too, in most cases. When I moved here and had to furnish a house / stock a kitchen, I was amazed at the diversity and quality of basic cheap home goods here.

"Here" being Japan? Most of those cheap home goods (Muji etc) are made in China now.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#86

Post by geerlingguy » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

robotmay wrote: post #38

beagle3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional lens manufacturing is likely in its last days (which can easily take a decade or two, but ... the end is visible). Modern lens are made with techniques perfected in semiconductor manufacturing, and use advances in material science (meta materials in particular). I don't know how close this is to mass market, but I've seen superthin flat lens, with a marginal cost of production around ~$2 in a university f…

There's a couple of lens advancements I've seen recently that I found particularly interesting: Canon putting Fresnel elements in their lenses to reduce size/weight: https://kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/400mm-f4-do-is-ii.htm Canon making an f/11 800mm super telephoto lens that can still autofocus thanks to the new mirrorless camera bodies: https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm I think we'll see a b…

Nikon has been making PF, or Phased Fresnel, lenses for a number of years too. The 300mm f4 is a head-turner due to its tiny size and diminutive weight, while still being as good as the old 300mm in almost every way.

They also have a 500mm 5.6 that's similarly tiny (compared to a non-PF version) and hard to get.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#87

Post by geerlingguy » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

wegs wrote: post #83

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

Heartbreaking, but they are a "survivor" company. They have lasted over 100 years, through a world war (including firestorm bombing), earthquakes, fires and tsunamis. They had never been particularly big, until the 1990s, with the advent of point-and-shoot digital cameras. That gravy train ended when the iPhone came out. They are probably contracting to their more traditional role, of Big Black Cameras, as well as so…

> They have some of the finest scientists and engineers in the world, as well as a gigantic portfolio of patents. They aren't going away. Those are exactly quickly going away. Engineers and scientists need to get paid and want job stability, while patents have a 20-year lifespan. Nikon was on top of the world in 2008 with the D300 and the D90, but the technologies that made those possible were patented years prior. R…

Nikon needs a new D3/D700-tier body to get back into the game. Right now their bodies are just 'competitive' with Canon and Sony FF bodies... back when the D3 sensor came out, it put the final nail in the coffin for most analog film shooters.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#88

Post by jonpurdy » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:11 PM UTC

monkeynotes wrote: post #78

formerly_proven wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the moment lens prices are pretty bonkers but I think that Canon f/11 lens is a great indicator; it's basically less than 1/10th of the cost of a traditional 800mm lens and does more than enough for most people. But that tradeoff seems hardly new to me. Consumer 70-300 for ~300 $ vs. Pro 70-200 for 2000+ $. The "only" difference is build quality and the pro lens being 2-3 stops brighter. Price difference: ~10x.

2-3 stops is enormous. Speed of the lens is partially where the additional cost comes from, and professionals are willing to pay for that extra performance - especially sports photographers. It's been a long time since I paid any attention to pro photographic equipment so I don't know if fast lenses are important with modern sensors performing so well in low light. But back in the analog/early digital days 2-3 stops…

Used to shoot sports back in uni, circa 2008 (Just amazing how much things have changed since then).

IIRC, the pro lenses (white Canons) focused faster as a result of them letting more light in, as well as having faster motors (USM), though mid-range lenses had these as well.

Around that time, the body also made a big difference since the 1D-series had ~45 AF points, and the lower and mid-range bodes had 9-20 AF points. Not sure if this is still relevant but I think even low end bodies have a ton of AF points these days.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#89

Post by dagw » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #66

staticelf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, like my father, of course use some stuff made in China since for several things there are literally no other choice. But regarding masks, I live in Sweden and basically no one here wears a mask, including my father. Both me and my father have been isolated of course but there is really no need for him to wear a mask. We shop online and otherwise only meet people from our own family. I work from home and he closed…

> I live in Sweden and basically no one here wears a mask > there is really no need for him to wear a mask. Can't believe we're 10+ months in and people still think like that. Didn't the Swedish gov and even the king declared they fucked up big time like last week ? Sweden's covid handling is a total failure: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/n…

Didn't the Swedish gov and even the king declared they fucked up big time like last week?

That was related to how they handled old people and care homes. The Swedish government still firmly believes that general mask use is at best unnecessary.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#90

Post by KineticLensman » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #39

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

Heartbreaking, but they are a "survivor" company. They have lasted over 100 years, through a world war (including firestorm bombing), earthquakes, fires and tsunamis. They had never been particularly big, until the 1990s, with the advent of point-and-shoot digital cameras. That gravy train ended when the iPhone came out. They are probably contracting to their more traditional role, of Big Black Cameras, as well as so…

> They have some of the finest scientists and engineers in the world, as well as a gigantic portfolio of patents. They aren't going away. Kodak would like to have a word.

> Kodak would like to have a word

They will have to join the queue behind a lot of Swiss watchmakers.