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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#151

Post by fingerlocks »

smegger001 wrote: post #137
fingerlocks wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That term is over 50 years old and not commonly used, if at all, ever. The only time I've seen "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" brought up is either in a article about how that term is racist, or a historic piece referencing the origins from the 1968 New England Journal of Medicine. However, my local Hippy Organic Community Grocery Store has all sorts of products proudly claiming the absence of MSG.

>However, my local Hippy Organic Community Grocery Store has all sorts of products proudly claiming the absence of MSG. I wonder if they label tomatoes with that? if so they are falsely advertising as it naturally occurs in tomato.

It usually says “No MSG added”

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#152

Post by eloff »

umeshunni wrote: post #8
ceejayoz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MSG is a naturally occurring food substance, with a distinctive savory taste known by Japanese as umami. “It’s a chemical the same way water is a chemical,” said LeMesurier, who is herself of Korean descent, raised by white parents. “If you have ever eaten aged cheese or heirloom tomatoes, you’ve eaten MSG.” Its powdered form was created in 1908 by a chemist in Japan, and it made its way with Chinese immigrants to…

Cyanide is also a naturally occurring chemical found in food items like Cassava and to a lesser extent, potatoes. That didn't make it harmless.

Yes, thank you for pointing out natural != healthy, and likewise artificial != unhealthy. People are too quick in general to assume one way or the other on that poor heuristic and ignore the evidence.

Heuristics are a mental shortcut, not evidence themselves.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#153

Post by tptacek »

Droobfest wrote: post #141
louisvgchi wrote: post #10

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

I still think it's wrong to dismiss people's experiences out of hand and lump it all onto the racism pile. So it's likely not the MSG, but maybe the chinese restaurants these people go to have a reputation for not being the freshest? This can raise histamine levels in the food and cause the same symptoms as an allergic reaction (which it basically is). Whatever it is, there is no reason to assume the food intolerance…

On the one hand, you think it's wrong to suggest there's racism involved in MSG's reputation tying back to "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome", and on the other hand, you offer an axiomatic derivation of Chinese restaurants being unhealthy ("histamines") because of their "reputation for not being the freshest".

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#154

Post by wpietri »

aaron695 wrote: post #132
yongjik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)

I think your mistake is to think being racist is bad. We are all racist. It's part of being human, we form groups, it's how we invent vaccines and go to the moon. I see MSG as Japanese, since the purified process was invented there. I have no idea if Koreans in general consider it a Japanese invention? Equally it could be the power of Hollywood. It changes culture. But it's not "being misinformed". It's well know MSG…

Humans are also naturally violent, but me saying "Hey, I'm going to stab you because I'm just human" is probably not something you'd shrug off.

In particular, what you're indulging here is the naturalistic fallacy, or the is/ought fallacy. What's natural tells us nothing about what's good. Tooth decay is natural and your toothbrush is artificial. But I'd bet you're not going to stop brushing your teeth just to stay philosophically consistent.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#155

Post by [deleted] »

wwweston wrote: post #116
yongjik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)

Does anyone who swears that MSG is bad for health do so because they personally hold anti-chinese racist views? Probably not. Is it possible that: * the MSG mythology in some Western nation was proposed by those with some degree of bias against foreign things or chinese cuisine or people specifically * it caught on and was repeated by people who were enthusiastic about it because of some degree of that bias * MSG was…

[deleted]

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#156

Post by bassman9000 »

louisvgchi wrote: post #10

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

How does umami and Chinese get mixed?

Looks to me we just wanted to find racism whatever the cost was.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#157

Post by wyattpeak »

dotancohen wrote: post #147
wyattpeak wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the evidence he's putting forward suggests that it doesn't exist, or at least isn't widely present among people who claim to suffer the condition.

Correct, because he is portraying one side of a story. I could point you to studies that show no connection between smoking and lung cancer. That doesn't mean that other studies, with different conclusions, do not exist.

Right, but that's not my point. You seem to suggest that his argument is that MSG allergy doesn't exist because some people's belief in it is racist ("does COVID-19 not exist, because somebody called it Chinese Flu?").

That's not his argument. He argues that it doesn't exist based on the fact that people who claim to be allergic don't suffer ill effects from other MSG-containing products. The comment about racism is secondary, it's not the basis of his claim that the allergy isn't real.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#158

Post by kevinmchugh »

dotancohen wrote: post #143
kevinmchugh wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The studies I've seen that show an MSG reaction allow respondents to taste the MSG. In studies in which respondents cannot taste the MSG (by putting it in a capsule), there's no effect demonstrated.

I'm not familiar with those studies, but here are just a few ideas (made up now, on the spot). 1. MSG in a capsule is not how MSG in food is delivered. So perhaps the delivery mechanism has something to do with it. Perhaps the capsule allows the MSG to pass the tongue, or esophagous, or stomach, with far less reactivity than free MSG does. Maybe the interaction of MSG with other chemicals is necessary for the effects…

I'm unaware of any blinded study which shows a reaction. Here's a good thread on it: https://twitter.com/CookingIssues/status/1084888303613214720...

There have been studies which get self-selecting individuals to test their reaction, which would make #2 less likely. The best study, I think is https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/027869..., where none of the individuals tested knew what they were being tested for. Maybe all msg sensitive people opted out of any food challenge, but that's not always the case, given the 2000 study in the linked tweet.

I think #1 is the most likely explanation, fwiw.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#159

Post by rangibaby »

yongjik wrote: post #76
fraudsyndrome wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they for different reasons? What is the reason Koreans think it's bad for health? As I haven't read about that. Given that in the west it was also dubbed "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" I would think some form of prejudice played a part.

> What is the reason Koreans think it's bad for health? Pretty much the same reason why Americans think it's bad for health. It has a scary-sounding name (it's also called "MSG" in Korea), it sounds like a "chemical", and you can find it in ingredient lists of all popular junk foods - most notably instant ramen, which is basically an MSG+salt solution masquerading as noodles. Give something in food an exotic name, an…

You might be onto something with the name theory. In JP it’s commonly called “flavor salt”, and there is no sign of anti-MSG anywhere

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#160

Post by tpush »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #82
pmoriarty wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Invoking racism and gender discrimination when it’s not the reason, causes more racism" So, wait, you're saying if someone who's not a racist gets called a racist that's going to be enough to turn him in to a racist? If that's all it took they were probably racist to begin with.

All humans are racist to one degree or another.

Please leave this "race realism" shit off HN, thanks.
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