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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#141

Post by Droobfest »

louisvgchi wrote: post #10

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

I still think it's wrong to dismiss people's experiences out of hand and lump it all onto the racism pile.

So it's likely not the MSG, but maybe the chinese restaurants these people go to have a reputation for not being the freshest? This can raise histamine levels in the food and cause the same symptoms as an allergic reaction (which it basically is).

Whatever it is, there is no reason to assume the food intolerance itself is a lie..

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#142

Post by matsemann »

martey wrote: post #134
matsemann wrote: post #101

> Since the initial reporting of this story, information has come to light calling into question Howard Steel’s role in the MSG controversy. For more on this fascinating story, listen to This American Life episode #668. Does anybody know the conclusion? Was the part about a joke letter because of a bet real or not?

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/668/transcript > So it seems like Howard didn't write the fake prank letter that caused decades of chaos. His prank was that he said he had written the letter. He was claiming credit for chaos he didn't create. It was complicated to even think about.

Thanks, didn't know they had a transcript.

Too bad the linked article hasn't edited their story with this information. This will just create another myth and further spread false information.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#143

Post by dotancohen »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #127
dotancohen wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> randomized blinded studies found no effect at all. And other randomized blinded studies have found an effect. Hence, the controversy. Not to mention that the American food industry is very dependent upon the availability of an inexpensive, effective flavour enhancer.

The studies I've seen that show an MSG reaction allow respondents to taste the MSG. In studies in which respondents cannot taste the MSG (by putting it in a capsule), there's no effect demonstrated.

I'm not familiar with those studies, but here are just a few ideas (made up now, on the spot).

1. MSG in a capsule is not how MSG in food is delivered. So perhaps the delivery mechanism has something to do with it. Perhaps the capsule allows the MSG to pass the tongue, or esophagous, or stomach, with far less reactivity than free MSG does. Maybe the interaction of MSG with other chemicals is necessary for the effects to manifest.

2. Maybe there exists a psycophysical element for some subjects? Such as the commonplace phenomenon of non-celiac "gluten intolerant" people. If those types of people self-select to take part in a study, no wonder no connection is found. And real sufferers would stay far away from a study that promises to expose them to a chemical that they know to be harmful to themselves.

3. There have been many studies which have found no connection between smoking and lung cancer. There have been many studies which have found no connection between fossil fuel usage and climate change. The existence of a study which finds no connection does not mean that such a connection does not exist. Especially when a huge industry depends upon no connection being found.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#144

Post by ceejayoz »

BurningFrog wrote: post #105
jeromegv wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a long history of racism against Chinese immigrants in America. Among the only jobs they were allowed to have was having restaurants. Of course this led to rumours of Chinese restaurant being dirty and their MSG causing sickness. It’s a very long history and it’s well documented. While you’re at it, read on the Chinese exclusion act. And now you’re saying that people who call this racism for what is is are th…

The Chinese Exclusion Act was 1882. If that's the most recent example, I'd call it an "ancient history of racism", not a "long history of racism".

You probably should look at more than just the start date for that act.

> Exclusion was repealed by the Magnuson Act on December 17, 1943, which allowed 105 Chinese to enter per year. Chinese immigration later increased [to 2000/year from the "Asiatic barred zone"] with the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which abolished direct racial barriers, and later by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which abolished the National Origins Formula.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#145

Post by lavishlatern »

yongjik wrote: post #76
fraudsyndrome wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they for different reasons? What is the reason Koreans think it's bad for health? As I haven't read about that. Given that in the west it was also dubbed "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" I would think some form of prejudice played a part.

> What is the reason Koreans think it's bad for health? Pretty much the same reason why Americans think it's bad for health. It has a scary-sounding name (it's also called "MSG" in Korea), it sounds like a "chemical", and you can find it in ingredient lists of all popular junk foods - most notably instant ramen, which is basically an MSG+salt solution masquerading as noodles. Give something in food an exotic name, an…

> Besides, if "racism" is the explanation behind it, how are you going to explain the immense popularity of Chinese food everywhere in America?

Probably in the same way that one could explain how the existence of Taco Bell does not preclude racism towards Mexicans.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#146

Post by dragonwriter »

dotancohen wrote: post #135
bobthepanda wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSG sensitivity has never been shown to be true in a replicable clinical environment in humans. The few studies that have shown this to cause symptoms use extremely large doses of MSG that aren't used in food (for one thing, the dosages involved would be unpalatable even for those without the symptoms; overseasoning is generally unpleasant)

> MSG sensitivity has never been shown to be true in a replicable clinical environment in humans. Actually, it has been. The fine article even mentions that. > The few studies that have shown this to cause symptoms use extremely large doses of MSG that aren't used in food (for one thing, the dosages involved would be unpalatable even for those without the symptoms; So you do accept that some studies have demonstrated…

> So you do accept that some studies have demonstrated MSG sensitivity

No, some studies have shown that high doses or unusual methods of introduction (e.g., IV) of MSG can cause symptoms; no properly controlled studies have shown sensitivity (i.e., a trait in which people are prone to symptoms at lower thresholds that are typical, such that they might experience symptoms with doses that might actual be encountered outside of deliberate mass ingestion.)

> Do you find it utterly impossible that some people could be sensitive at one-sixth the dose that "most people" become sensitive at?

“It’s not utterly impossible” is not the same thing as “clinical studies have provided evidence for it”.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#147

Post by dotancohen »

wyattpeak wrote: post #140
dotancohen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dave proposes, “do you think racism plays a part?” So does COVID-19 not exist, because somebody called it Chinese Flu? A thing can exist, independent of racism, even if somebody uses it to promote their racism.

Sure, but the evidence he's putting forward suggests that it doesn't exist, or at least isn't widely present among people who claim to suffer the condition.

Correct, because he is portraying one side of a story. I could point you to studies that show no connection between smoking and lung cancer. That doesn't mean that other studies, with different conclusions, do not exist.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#148

Post by sonotmyname »

fraudsyndrome wrote: post #39
yongjik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)

Are they for different reasons? What is the reason Koreans think it's bad for health? As I haven't read about that. Given that in the west it was also dubbed "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" I would think some form of prejudice played a part.

> Given that in the west it was also dubbed "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" I would think some form of prejudice played a part.

Given that 60 years ago the only place anyone in the US would run into manufactured MAG was in a Chinese restaurant, calling it that doesn’t seem the least bit related to race.

And given that I’ve grown up in Canada and the US, eat Chinese food regularly, and have never heard this term before today, it seems incredibly overblown.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#149

Post by kevinmchugh »

to11mtm wrote: post #88
louisvgchi wrote: post #10

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

> to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. I've wondered this myself over the years. My current operating theory is that it's not necessarily the MSG but perhaps the Mushroom powder...

It might be the taste of MSG-rich food, when a sensitive individual hasn't eaten recently, that triggers it. This could explain why it's so commonly reported with miso soup - it's served at the beginning of the meal. The association is known by folks who grew up eating MSG natively: https://twitter.com/kenjilopezalt/status/1291882403506475008...

If this were true, it'd explain why other glutamate-rich foods don't have the same reputation. It might suggest that we shouldn't buy doritos from a vending machine when we need a snack, though.

Studies where respondents can't taste the MSG don't show an effect, so maybe it's the taste, and not the chemical, that causes the problem. Also it seems unlikely that the MSG could actually get to the brain.

I'd love to see an experiment where self-identifying sensitive individuals either eat miso soup or gargle it without swallowing and see if there's a difference in reactions.

I'd also like to know more about common knowledge about MSG in Japan and China.

(I think the racist myth could cause a psychosomatic effect for people who aren't sensitive)

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#150

Post by wpietri »

yongjik wrote: post #26
louisvgchi wrote: post #10

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

I wish people stopped invoking racism everywhere, when plain "being misinformed" explains things just fine. Millions of Koreans swear up and down that MSG is bad for health. Are we also being racist? (Against whom?)

I used to think the same way. But now that I see how pervasive a force racism has been in America's history, I have a different view. Now I think it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?

A couple of the books that turned me around here: Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", a history of racist ideas. And Loewen's "Sundown Towns", a look at the wave of ethnic cleansing during the Nadir that happened across America. I had known about the Tulsa Massacre, but what I didn't know was how common smaller-scale events were for decades.

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