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Being kind to others is good for your health

bbc.com

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Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#231

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

dash2 wrote: post #100
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When faced with a choice between: - causality is less widely applicable than we like to think - our behavior is more complex than we like to think I'm more inclined to doubt causality. Not that it's not a useful framework in general, but that is less useful when applied by humans to humans regarding human constructs like kindness.

This seems unclear. I mean, either X causes Y or it doesn’t. (If you change X, holding everything else constant, does Y change or not?) One thing you might mean is that causal chains are very complex and variable, so the average causal effect in a large population is not very informative about any individual - it’s an average of many different sized effects.

I agree with your second paragraph, mostly. It's a big mess of causes and effects--some going in one direction and some going in the other. To assume that they "average" requires that they be quantifiable and in the same dimension--which might not be the case.

As for your first paragraph, I don't think you can reasonably treat causation like an everywhere-binary like that. Not for arbitrary choices of X and Y.

Take "hunger" and "war" for instance. There are many causal arrows pointing from war to hunger, and several pointing the other way too. You have to zoom in to specific details before the language of causation starts being useful. "good for your health" and "being kind to others" are similarly aggregate concepts.

Causation is a myth, and a damn good one. We use it to reason about nearly everything. But the tendency to use it to reason about actually everything is a dangerous one.

Most of the time you can't "hold everything else constant". We usually have to settle for frobbing X back and forth many times and letting its continued correlation with Y convince us that there is indeed causal wiring between the two. At the end of most experiments is an inductive leap of faith that is justified by the high frob cout.

But sometimes X doesn't go back and forth. Sometimes it's a one-way deal and you only have one of them. Like maybe X is "finding carbon trapped in the earth's crust and releasing it into the atmosphere", and Y is "a global change in climate that poses an extinction risk to humans." In cases like that, we don't have the luxury of waiting for enough induction to bring about the leap of faith.

The situation with kindness and heath is similar. Ideally we'd take whatever wisdom we can from the correlative data that was presented and run with it--maybe there's a cause in there and it would make us healthier, maybe not. Instead we have this artificially high bar for argumentative strength, and when an argument fails to meet it we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#232

Post by sdoering »

wademealing wrote: post #230
xyzelement wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the clarity of your thinking and writing refreshing, it's rare for someone to observe and recognize these archetypes. I by and large agree with how you see it. One thing jumped out: >> I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. and >> My advice would be that if…

>> My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about personality traits from others, take it seriously. This is bland and simple advice at best, that only serves the 'groups' best interest, not the individual. Half the people you meet are below average intelligence, I'd strongly advise not listening to at least half of what people have to say. The other half could also be giving self-serv…

Since when does"take it seriously" mean follow the group's mainstream?

I read the op to imply that one should seriously think and reflect on why this feedback occurrs and if there is some kernel of truth within.

If I constantly get feedback I evaluate it and reflect on it. But that doesn't mean I need to implement everything.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#234

Post by ytwySXpMbS »

closeparen wrote: post #192
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone silently hates those people What? No. I don’t have a good sense for this. Having friends and colleagues and a partner with the focus and attention span for it is invaluable. Like it or not, power dynamics are real. And teams with someone tuned into their social dynamics can work better than one purely technical and aloof. Just because one doesn’t have a sense for a thing doesn’t make that thing despicable.

I think he's talking about people who respond to the professor's questions in lecture.

Or worse, ask pointless questions just to prove they understand the content.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#235

Post by ytwySXpMbS »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #148
ytwySXpMbS wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet everyone silently hates those people, people who waste everyone’s time just to prove how smart they are, usually failing in the process. There were always those people in my lectures.

> everyone silently hates those people What? No. I don’t have a good sense for this. Having friends and colleagues and a partner with the focus and attention span for it is invaluable. Like it or not, power dynamics are real. And teams with someone tuned into their social dynamics can work better than one purely technical and aloof. Just because one doesn’t have a sense for a thing doesn’t make that thing despicable.

As the other child of this comment said, I’m not talking about being socially aware. I’m talking about people who are so obnoxious they turn everything into a competition so they can validate their own ego, quite the opposite of being socially aware. Lectures aren’t a competition of who said what.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#236

Post by bserge »

adamsea wrote: post #46
bserge wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the idea, but sadly we're tied to these primitive bodies that have their own needs and urges. Perhaps in the future we will learn to shut off the primal instincts, but for now, it seems to do more bad than good if we ignore them.

Agreed. Want to gently critique: > sadly we're tied to these primitive bodies Our bodies (and the sensations and emotions produced by them) are not primitive. They’re super sophisticated and we are nowhere near being able to replicate them. There’s interesting work btw on the fundamentally intertwined nature of emotion and “rational” thought.

By primitive, I mostly meant the primitive brain and responses.

Emotions are a drawback imo, the fact that they're so deeply intertwined with the logical parts is a drawback.

We often act against our own best interests and health purely because we're afraid, for example.

Biological bodies are indeed, very sophisticated and versatile, too bad we can't control any of the features.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#237

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

ohyes wrote: post #86
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can take many forms. Folks each have their own "schtick," but it's what they are after that matters. 1) Money 2) Property They want me to give them money or goods. 3) Prestige They want me to feed a need for prestige. This can be as simple as agreeing with them in public, an endorsement or referral, or a requirement for some kind of submissive fawning. I started to write up a detailed description of how this can h…

> I have spent my entire adult life amongst some very aggressive and manipulative people, and keeping a good relationship with them, while gently enforcing personal boundaries, has always been a challenge. Okay, I’ll bite, why would you keep people like this around you? It sounds unpleasant.

I’ve spent most of my life as a member of an extracurricular organization that has “helping others” as a Principal plank in its platform.

Most folks that need help aren’t “pinkie-extended Earl Grey drinkers.” Can be a rough lot.

But I have an amazing bevy of really deep friendships and relationships with folks that I would never had met, otherwise.

Totally worth it.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#238

Post by devdas »

momokoko wrote: post #181
dukeyukey wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely believe there are differences, but are they really that different compared to areas of similar size in Europe, where you might go through a dozen different languages, different religions, massively varying political party support? And if you look at India or Indonesia, the cultural diversity becomes even more again.

Yes. Significantly different. Do you realize that metropolitan areas in US are not even 50% white or Christian or likely any of the other stereotypes people have of the US outside of the US. Many cities in the US provide documentation in often 4 or more languages. Schools employ large teams of specialists for teaching English as there are significant amounts of schools where less than half of the student population i…

Coming from India, the dominant flavour of Europe is some sort of white, Christian group, possibly with a dash of Islamic influence, but mostly monotheistic branches of the same family. There is some variety in languages, and food depending on the climate.

The US doesn't have all that much diversity comparitively. There is more diversity in skin colour, but the major cultural groups are far closer to each other than European ones.

You don't see how homogenous the culture is because you are so close to it.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#239

Post by Melting_Harps »

momokoko wrote: post #105
morlockabove wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In europe, the surrounding countries are your equivalent to the different states in the us

That isn’t really accurate. There is much more diversity in individual states depending on where you are than in most European countries. That statement is kind of what I mean. I don’t think most people outside, and to some extent inside the US, appreciate how much diversity of culture exists in the US.

> That isn’t really accurate. There is much more diversity in individual states depending on where you are than in most European countries.

You ever been in Spain, Italy, Germany or France?

This is simply not true, in Spain they have so many different languages, in the others they have incredibly dialects that seem like entirely different languages and can be only as short as 25km away from one another--something like Badish vs schwabish vs Alemansich vs Hoch Deutsch.

You have to live in places like Hawaii (which I did) before you get anything close to the stark differences I'm talking about, where they have an entirely different set of culture and language (Hawaiian pidgin) to see what is so pervasive all throughout Southern and Central Europe.

Re: Being kind to others is good for your health

#240

Post by UncleMeat »

anonytrary wrote: post #143

In my experience, being kind results in self-interested people taking advantage of you. People who want to climb the corporate ladder often prey on the kind, so I feel that kindness is "taught out" of people. There is a fine line between being kind and being a doormat. I don't really know where the line is though.

> In my experience, being kind results in self-interested people taking advantage of you.

That's okay. Sometimes you are taken advantage of. Sometimes your kindness truly helps improve another person's life. Sometimes your kindness returns to you amplified.

Risk minimization isn't always the best strategy. It can be okay for things to not work every time.

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