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Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

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Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#81

Post by PragmaticPulp »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #15

> "[A]lgorithms are made by people and the results ... were reviewed multiple times by people," You got that right. The way they talk about "an algorithm did it" makes it seem as as if they think that somehow explains it, like there was only one algorithm possible handed down from god or something. We'll be seeing more and more of this of course. "We can't be blamed, it was an algorithm! We can't be blamed for trusti…

In general, blaming the algorithm is an indirect way of blaming software engineers.

From Facebook to the VW emissions scandal to Stanford’s vaccine allocation, people love narratives that blame engineers. I suspect this trend will only get worse as the general public realizes that engineers are now a highly compensated professional, similar to how lawyers are the butt of so many jokes.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#82

Post by LeanderK »

smnrchrds wrote: post #53
jrochkind1 wrote: post #15

> "[A]lgorithms are made by people and the results ... were reviewed multiple times by people," You got that right. The way they talk about "an algorithm did it" makes it seem as as if they think that somehow explains it, like there was only one algorithm possible handed down from god or something. We'll be seeing more and more of this of course. "We can't be blamed, it was an algorithm! We can't be blamed for trusti…

"Machine learning is like money laundering for bias" https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/744595961217835008

I am not a native speaker and I don't think I understand the quote. What should "money laundering for bias mean"?

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#83

Post by s5300 »

davidf560 wrote: post #24
amb23 wrote: post #12

The labor of medical residents is something hospital systems exploit during normal times, but that exploitation has severely deepened during the pandemic. At the hospital my partner works at, respiratory therapists and nurses got a $10k bonus for working during COVID; the residents got nothing despite working insane hours in ICU, routinely working more than the legally mandated 90 hours per week. Just because doctors…

> I can name 3 other local hospital systems in my city that have vaccinated administrative & C-suite/VP level staff I don't understand why society is putting up with this. Right now if you're not in a daily COVID-facing role (i.e. an actual front line medical worker) or in a nursing home you should not be getting the shot. This makes my blood boil. There should have been laws passed regarding ordering of the distribu…

Ehh, I completely and truly agree with you/feel the same way, but because I'm feeling a bit cynical right now, I have to say - the congressional representative getting it can be passed off as encouragement for his constituents to willingly get vaccinated in a time where there's quite a vocal bit of people who think Bill Gates is going to be swimming through their veins in a tiny submarine if they get it.

Now - could he have just vocally stated "I am your congressional rep - I have full trust in the vaccine and encourage you all to receive it as I wait for my time in the line of priority"

Yes, yes he could've.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#84

Post by bayindirh »

LeanderK wrote: post #82
smnrchrds wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Machine learning is like money laundering for bias" https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/744595961217835008

I am not a native speaker and I don't think I understand the quote. What should "money laundering for bias mean"?

Early machine learning / deep learning algorithms have shown bias towards some results or behavior due to problems in training dataset. These problems are tried to be remedied with better training sets but I'm not aware whether it's completely eliminated.

"Money laundering for bias" in this context can be translated as "Finding a plausible excuse/cover for a specific bias (your computer/model says the same!)".

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#85

Post by bombela »

LeanderK wrote: post #82
smnrchrds wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Machine learning is like money laundering for bias" https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/744595961217835008

I am not a native speaker and I don't think I understand the quote. What should "money laundering for bias mean"?

Money laundering hides where the money comes from.

Bias are subjective assumption you have of the world and people.

So this quote is saying that machine learning hides the source of bias.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#86

Post by rhino369 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #15

> "[A]lgorithms are made by people and the results ... were reviewed multiple times by people," You got that right. The way they talk about "an algorithm did it" makes it seem as as if they think that somehow explains it, like there was only one algorithm possible handed down from god or something. We'll be seeing more and more of this of course. "We can't be blamed, it was an algorithm! We can't be blamed for trusti…

I'm not even sure this formula is WRONG. It's just not great for morale.

Residents are generally under 34 and in good heath. In the USA, only ~2400 people 34 have died from COVID--and that is mostly people with comorbidites.

In comparison about ~250,000 people over 55 have died.

You'd obviously have do account for life-years lost, risk of exposure [1], etc. I wouldn't be shocked if giving the vaccine to a 25 year old resident is a sub-optimal choice.

[1]Based on my MiL's experience (an ER doc), the risk of infection at a hospital is a lot lower than it used to be because they have PPE now. She's more worried about catching it from her son who works in an office. That said, they need to take into account risk of exposure and risk that the residents spread it to others.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#87

Post by cpeterso »

LeanderK wrote: post #82
smnrchrds wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Machine learning is like money laundering for bias" https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/744595961217835008

I am not a native speaker and I don't think I understand the quote. What should "money laundering for bias mean"?

Before machine learning, a system (such as resume screening) that was biased was the fault of the rules and people implementing them. With machine learning, people can blame the “The Algorithm”, a numerical black box that can’t be inspected or interviewed. The system and people now claim they are blameless because “the computer can’t be biased“, even though it was trained on data produced by the previous biased system.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#88

Post by XorNot »

rhino369 wrote: post #86
jrochkind1 wrote: post #15

> "[A]lgorithms are made by people and the results ... were reviewed multiple times by people," You got that right. The way they talk about "an algorithm did it" makes it seem as as if they think that somehow explains it, like there was only one algorithm possible handed down from god or something. We'll be seeing more and more of this of course. "We can't be blamed, it was an algorithm! We can't be blamed for trusti…

I'm not even sure this formula is WRONG. It's just not great for morale. Residents are generally under 34 and in good heath. In the USA, only ~2400 people 34 have died from COVID--and that is mostly people with comorbidites. In comparison about ~250,000 people over 55 have died. You'd obviously have do account for life-years lost, risk of exposure [1], etc. I wouldn't be shocked if giving the vaccine to a 25 year old…

I mean a surface level analysis would say that you've missed a critical datum if you're saying patient-facing staff should be left at risk of being incapacitated from their duties for up to a month.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#89

Post by magneticnorth »

andi999 wrote: post #79

Most likely residents are young, arent they? So if they prioritized people most like getting affected by the disease and only have 5000 shots, I am not suprised that no resident made it to the list.

The problem is that the doctors who are doing their job completely remotely are getting the vaccine ahead of the people who have to work 90 hours a week in overcrowded hospitals.

While age does matter, ability to control exposure and risk of spreading the disease within the hospital should be at least as important, in my opinion.

Re: Stanford apologizes after vaccine allocation leaves out medical residents

#90

Post by faitswulff »

fairity wrote: post #47
faitswulff wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no dumb honest mistakes when it comes to putting people’s lives at risk. Engineering and algorithmic errors like this and the Boeing 737 max debacle are absolutely worth being outraged over.

Agreed that society should be more critical of mistakes that put people's lives at risk. But, this decision scores fairly low by that measure. If I had to guess, 0.00001 residents would have died due to this error. There are many more attention-worthy mistakes to be critical of if this is the main concern. I think the real reason this story is getting attention is because people are assuming selfish intent. I think t…

Residents are also frontline workers who would be some of the most effective in stopping the spread of the virus once vaccinated. Second and third order effects should have been considered in a well crafted algorithm. And your conjecture that it was not selfish hasn’t been proven, either.
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