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A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

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Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#21

Post by jfengel »

mav3rick wrote: post #16
libraryofbabel wrote: post #8

Note: the assertion that the experience of plague caused Shakespeare to change the ending of King Lear is really just speculation by one scholar. The evidence is circumstantial in the extreme. We know rather little about Shakespeare’s biography or inner life, and after two centuries of people combing over every scrap of archival evidence they can find we are not likely to discover much more. Which is fine by me reall…

Can you suggest a plain English adaption of his works ?

I don't think a plain English adaptation is very helpful. His work isn't about the story, but the language. The work is poetry, both literally and figuratively, and a plain English adaptation is like somebody telling you about their favorite song.

Better, I think, is to see a good film adaptation. Shakespeare was never intended to be read, but to be performed. There's a lot in the text that isn't apparent until you've studied it closely, but a good performance will bring it right out in the open.

A few films that I'd suggest to get started with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_V_(1989_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Ado_About_Nothing_(1993_f... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_(1995_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolanus_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_%2B_Juliet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_(2000_film)

These are all good, accessible versions of his plays. You don't need to be an expert to understand and enjoy them. (They're very roughly in order of my favorites, if that matters to you.)

I won't guarantee you'll like them. There's really nothing wrong with that. People get snobby about Shakespeare, and they shouldn't. It's OK to say, "Yeah, it's not for me". But under all the snobbery, there really is great text and great performances that people genuinely enjoy. If you're interested in that, these films are the places I'd start.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#22

Post by jfengel »

briefcomment wrote: post #17
InvisibleCities wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good" I couldn't agree more, which is why I like Shakespeare so much better than Tolstoy.

We need more writing where people are the best they can be. Imagine the good Shakespeare could have done by making his characters the best role models. People imitate, and Shakespeare has incredible reach. As I get older, I have little patience for flawed characters, and love it when I see someone act good all the time in fiction. Edit: Tintin, for example, is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. He i…

I get that, and it's a challenge for me as a Shakespeare actor and director. I often work with these "flawed" characters, and early in the process there's this question of "do I really want to tell the story about this person?"

I've got only limited patience for people being stupid and/or mean. Can't we tell stories about good and smart people? Those stories exist, but they're depressingly rare.

I have ways of turning Shakespeare's text into a story that I think you will want to hear. Or at least, trying to. It's the hard part of my job as an artist.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#23

Post by jfengel »

ghaff wrote: post #15
ocschwar wrote: post #12

In the source material (Geoffrey of Monmouth), Cordelia successfully rescues Lear and secures a dignified life for him. So something had to make him change the story.

Shakespeare had some plays that had at least tragic elements--Pericles, Cymbeline, The Winter's Tale. Maybe The Tempest.--with happy or happyish endings. But he mostly didn't do "Hollywood Endings" on his tragedies. So the something may simply have been "great source material but that ending has to go."

The first three plays you mention are rarely performed, and for good reason: they're kind of a mess. Not everything fits neatly into Comedy/Tragedy/History, but his most widely regarded plays were all tragedies where everybody ends up dead. It's a trope he wrote well.

So I concur with you. I haven't read the original King Leir, but I have read Nahum Tate's happy-ending rewrite of Shakespeare, and the ending just reads false.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#24

Post by winstonewert »

barnacled wrote: post #20

I am seeing a trend recently of comparing the plague to covid 19 and it is rather frustrating. The case fatality rate of the black death was 30-60% pretty much across the board for the bubonic variant. Covid 19 is 0.4% and really that is heavily skewed by those over the age of 70 and especially 80. Covid 19, while enormously disruptive due to its infectiousness and tendency to put a big chunk of people in hospital, d…

How much of the black death date rate was due to lack of medical knowledge? Would we really have the same terrible outcome if a similar disease hit today?

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#25

Post by spaced-out »

briefcomment wrote: post #17
InvisibleCities wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good" I couldn't agree more, which is why I like Shakespeare so much better than Tolstoy.

We need more writing where people are the best they can be. Imagine the good Shakespeare could have done by making his characters the best role models. People imitate, and Shakespeare has incredible reach. As I get older, I have little patience for flawed characters, and love it when I see someone act good all the time in fiction. Edit: Tintin, for example, is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. He i…

Part of why Shakespeare became so popular is that his plays portrayed more realistic characters.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#26

Post by marricks »

InvisibleCities wrote: post #7
marricks wrote: post #3

Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare He specifically goes to town on King Lear and gets into some interesting discussions on how he thinks the earlier Lear Shakespeare referenced is structurally better. Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he fe…

> Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good" I couldn't agree more, which is why I like Shakespeare so much better than Tolstoy.

Oh gosh I feel the exact opposite. Of the Tolstoy books I've read I don't think any of his characters are martyrs as one might expect "someone too good is" but you see examples of people thoughtfully trying to helping others and it paying off, while others who thoughtless do it end up, uh, not so great.

I guess I don't consider myself as much an expert on Shakespeare to critique his side though.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#27

Post by marricks »

disown wrote: post #19
marricks wrote: post #3

Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare He specifically goes to town on King Lear and gets into some interesting discussions on how he thinks the earlier Lear Shakespeare referenced is structurally better. Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he fe…

> Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare Holy shit. "... nevertheless I will endeavor, as well as I can, to show why I believe that Shakespeare can not be recognized either as a great genius, or even as an average author." Shakespeare isn't even an average author? Who knew Tolstoy was…

He brought up language barrier and re-read Shakespeare in multiple languages! It's a piping hot and interesting opinion!

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#28

Post by kshacker »

barnacled wrote: post #20

I am seeing a trend recently of comparing the plague to covid 19 and it is rather frustrating. The case fatality rate of the black death was 30-60% pretty much across the board for the bubonic variant. Covid 19 is 0.4% and really that is heavily skewed by those over the age of 70 and especially 80. Covid 19, while enormously disruptive due to its infectiousness and tendency to put a big chunk of people in hospital, d…

Wow you got me thinking. 30-60% case fatality rate. Imagine living in those days after the disease was widespread and well known but not understood and one morning just feeing a little sick and you knew wow is this the end.

Wonder if there is a 'good' novel on those days?

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#29

Post by ghaff »

jfengel wrote: post #23
ghaff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakespeare had some plays that had at least tragic elements--Pericles, Cymbeline, The Winter's Tale. Maybe The Tempest.--with happy or happyish endings. But he mostly didn't do "Hollywood Endings" on his tragedies. So the something may simply have been "great source material but that ending has to go."

The first three plays you mention are rarely performed, and for good reason: they're kind of a mess. Not everything fits neatly into Comedy/Tragedy/History, but his most widely regarded plays were all tragedies where everybody ends up dead. It's a trope he wrote well. So I concur with you. I haven't read the original King Leir, but I have read Nahum Tate's happy-ending rewrite of Shakespeare, and the ending just read…

Yes. Of those 4, only The Tempest is top-drawer Shakespeare although, to be honest, The Winter's Tale is the only one of the other three I've actually read/seen performed.

The Tempest--which is one of my favorites--was one of his very last plays and certainly his last great one; it's hard not to see the ending, e.g. the breaking of the staff, as symbolic in a way that his other play conclusions were not.

>his most widely regarded plays

I guess I agree. Comedy doesn't get a lot of love at the Oscars either. I certainly appreciate plays like A Midsummer Night's Dream. But I have admit a lot of the gender-switching and mistaken identities in many of his comedies tend to blend together for me after a while.

Re: A happy ending for King Lear? Trauma of plague caused Shakespeare to change it

#30

Post by ghaff »

kshacker wrote: post #28
barnacled wrote: post #20

I am seeing a trend recently of comparing the plague to covid 19 and it is rather frustrating. The case fatality rate of the black death was 30-60% pretty much across the board for the bubonic variant. Covid 19 is 0.4% and really that is heavily skewed by those over the age of 70 and especially 80. Covid 19, while enormously disruptive due to its infectiousness and tendency to put a big chunk of people in hospital, d…

Wow you got me thinking. 30-60% case fatality rate. Imagine living in those days after the disease was widespread and well known but not understood and one morning just feeing a little sick and you knew wow is this the end. Wonder if there is a 'good' novel on those days?

In an SF context, Doomsday Book by Connie Willis is one.
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