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Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

bmj.com

321–330 of 345 posts

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For many people, the idea of cooking a meal has been elevated to a special occasion event, as a treat or a date night. This is partially due to the fact that boring, everyday meal recipes just aren't as flashy as a 15-ingredient, hour long recipe that results in a stunning picture for someone's blog or instagram. I think the root is that everyone's rents and other costs are way higher. Many folks are barely getting…

Barely getting by in America means being rich for much of the world including many European countries. How is it that the economics works out so differently in, say, Eastern Europe where poor people's best choice is to buy staples in bulk and cook and can't afford packaged convenience food and eating out? It's because American people's time is priced much higher and they earn much more overall.

> Barely getting by in America means being rich for much of the world including many European countries.

Barely getting by in America means incredible poverty, homelessness, an inability to get medical care, and visits to food banks. I'm curious to understand what you are basing your claims/arguments on - would you be willing to share any sources that have shaped your perspective on these issues? My own arguments are based on socialist organizers who are on the ground and organizing in the US, as well as the paper this thread is discussing.

> How is it that the economics works out so differently in, say, Eastern Europe where poor people's best choice is to buy staples in bulk and cook and can't afford packaged convenience food and eating out?

> It's because American people's time is priced much higher and they earn much more overall.

I'm curious, have you been able to read the BMJ paper/article? This is absolutely not meant in a derogatory way. I am genuinely curious to understand where you are coming from or what your statement is based on.

From my understanding the paper argues that people's perceptions of which foods are nutritional has been distorted and negatively manipulated by corporations. In other words, people have come to believe low-nutritional food (or even non-nutritional food) is somehow nutritional, when in fact it actively contributes to ill-health and chronic disease/conditions.

From the first paragraph of this paper:

"In 2015 the New York Times revealed that Coca Cola was covertly funding the Global Energy Balance Network based at the University of Colorado, a research network set up to promote the message that all calories are equal.1 The network’s aim was to show that sugar sweetened beverages are no more responsible for the rise in obesity levels than any other foods or a lack of physical activity.2 In doing so, Coca Cola was copying and adapting the corporate political activities and scientific strategies that have been pioneered and perfected by tobacco, alcohol, and drug companies to defend and promote their products.34

Corporate food and beverage companies such as Coca Cola have engaged in what I will refer to as “corporate scientific activities.” These activities are designed to produce and influence the scientific knowledge used to evaluate, promote, legitimise, and regulate their products. Such activities include funding and conducting in-house nutrition research related to their products; sponsoring scientific seminars and expert meetings; involvement in scientific standards and policy committees; publishing in scholarly journals; funding scientific front groups; and delivering nutrition education programmes.2" [1]

[1] same as the link at the top of the page: https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4601

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Please forgive the scattered reply. I'm tired and I've mostly pieced this together from other discussions I've had on this topic.) I firmly believe that the problem stems from a mass unspoken refusal to address obesity as a symptom of food addiction. Food addiction is among the hardest to kick because humans not only need food to survive, but also need glucose (and/or ketone bodies) in order to have sufficient menta…

I am just watching the British "Supersize Vs Superskinny" series. The heavy articipants have serious addiction problem, obviously. The question is whether some foods are inherently addictive, at least for some people who are more predisposed to food addiction. There are some obvious commonalities in the diets of the superfatties: pretty much every one of them consumes a lot of pizza, fries, soft drinks and various fa…

The article "The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5025969/

Gluten can be degraded into several morphine-like substances, named gluten exorphins. These compounds have proven opioid effects and could mask the deleterious effects of gluten protein on gastrointestinal lining and function. Here we describe a putative mechanism, explaining how gluten could “mask” its own toxicity by exorphins that are produced through gluten protein digestion.

No wonder it is addictive when you can get a morphine like effect when eating it. Most fast food contains wheat and vegetable oils (and not the ones that are good for you like Olive Oil). Nobody can stay slim with these food as they usually contain close zero in nutrition value except for energy.

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Yes, if you got fat, you consumed more calories than you used up. The solution will require getting closer to balance. 2. The actionable way to achieve that is non-trivial. Different foods with same amount of calories have different physiological effects, including which hormones are produced with what timings and what neural circuitry is activated. This leads to different degrees of psychological fullness, cravin…

It isn't. And how often have you lost weight eating junk food yourself? I have done it...no effect. Satiety doesn't matter...thinking that it does is why people don't lose weight. You will be hungry, it will be unpleasant, but continue. Again, this is the fat person with the diet soda effect...most diets that exist don't work, that is why there are so many fat people. Reduce it to something simple, measurable, and it…

I find it much harder to stop eating seasoned chips than unsalted peanuts. The latter still tastes nice but doesn't have me mindlessly consume 800 calories in one sitting because at one point my brain gets bored with it. My brain doesn't ever get bored with chips or chocolate sweets or sweet yogurts etc. So I don't buy them.

If you overload your brain with engineered hyperpalatable packaged products, you will need superhuman willpower and discipline to keep your calories in check.

There's no magic weight loss food, but it makes a difference whether you eat fibery, normal cooked meals or packaged salty fatty sugary tasty snacks all day.

Yes it will manifest itself as calories in the end, but the only long term solution is to unhook yourself from the marketing machine and say NO in the supermarket.

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barely getting by in America means being rich for much of the world including many European countries. How is it that the economics works out so differently in, say, Eastern Europe where poor people's best choice is to buy staples in bulk and cook and can't afford packaged convenience food and eating out? It's because American people's time is priced much higher and they earn much more overall.

> Barely getting by in America means being rich for much of the world including many European countries. Barely getting by in America means incredible poverty, homelessness, an inability to get medical care, and visits to food banks. I'm curious to understand what you are basing your claims/arguments on - would you be willing to share any sources that have shaped your perspective on these issues? My own arguments are…

Homeless people eat burgers and drink Coca Cola at the food banks and become fat?

I think the population under concern here is the lower middle class, who have disposable income but are strongly marketed to and manipulated so they use their disposable income in ignorant ways that come back to hurt them and help corporations. Including taking credits to buy stuff they don't need, getting another credit card to pay off the previous one, eating marketed and advertised junk food, consuming junk media, having no financial literacy etc.

They still aren't poor, they have cars and all kinds of household appliances (perhaps more than they need, from TV shop etc) and so on.

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#325
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same logic could be extended to tax sedentary entertainment products. Or just let it take its course... Hail freedom! (for corporate marketing and optimizing addiction potential of all products) Boo regulation, that's anti-competitive and communist!

I know you say it in jest, but poorly administered regulation can be worse than no regulation at all. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or something to that effect. I’m not against the idea of taxation, I just think it should be done equitably and properly thought out, not haphazardly applied in a reactionary manner. It’s like the idea of regulating check cashing places. I concede that they can often ha…

You also don't take into account that companies respond to taxes by reducing the amount of the taxed components in the products.

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Barely getting by in America means being rich for much of the world including many European countries. Barely getting by in America means incredible poverty, homelessness, an inability to get medical care, and visits to food banks. I'm curious to understand what you are basing your claims/arguments on - would you be willing to share any sources that have shaped your perspective on these issues? My own arguments are…

Homeless people eat burgers and drink Coca Cola at the food banks and become fat? I think the population under concern here is the lower middle class, who have disposable income but are strongly marketed to and manipulated so they use their disposable income in ignorant ways that come back to hurt them and help corporations. Including taking credits to buy stuff they don't need, getting another credit card to pay off…

[deleted]

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#327
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you say it in jest, but poorly administered regulation can be worse than no regulation at all. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or something to that effect. I’m not against the idea of taxation, I just think it should be done equitably and properly thought out, not haphazardly applied in a reactionary manner. It’s like the idea of regulating check cashing places. I concede that they can often ha…

You also don't take into account that companies respond to taxes by reducing the amount of the taxed components in the products.

Every variant of a sugar tax I’ve seen has been at the consumer level. A “sugar added tax” would probably make more sense, but I think there would be little chance of that happening in the US because of lobbying effects. It would be interesting to see if Coke, for example, would shift to mainly sugar-free products (doubtful) but these are also correlated with obesity and its unclear why

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish we put more emphasis on educating young people about basic cooking and nutrition. More difficult than it sounds. Most people want to eat healthier but when they research it they'll get fad diets and pseudoscience. Just look at Keto, paleo, whole 30, etc.

Ask your parents or grandparents. Or just combine some of: meat, fish, rice, potatoes, veggies and legumes. How hard can it be? Maybe it will taste bland. Get over it.

I basically cook myself fish or chicken every day but that's not my point. My point is that it's very hard for the average american to receive good dietary information.

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#329
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand the utility part of the argument. But human beings have an innate drive for fairness in society. People will actually work against their self interest if they feel they are being treated unfairly. The counterpoint is that the “small part of the problem” logic works both ways. If it’s such a small part, it shouldn’t matter if it gets taxed. Taxing would have little impact on the consumption dynamics w…

I disagree that caloric drinks like sugary soda (along with hyperpalatable food) are a small part of the problem. From the standpoint of public health policy, it is a good idea to introduce simple measures that are effective for 90% of the target group. If it turns out necessary, you can find a (perhaps less optimal) solution for the other 10% later.

Obesity isn’t caused by excess sugar, it’s caused by excess calories. 6% is all sugary drinks, of which soda is a (major) subset. Taxing won’t eliminate consumption but it will reduce it. Say it’s wildly successful and soda consumption is reduced by 30%. If we’re being generous and say soda makes up 80% of the “sugary drink” category, the tax has reduced overall calories by less than 1.5%. I just don’t think that will move the needle of the country’s obesity epidemic. Will it have some impact? Sure, but I think our priorities should be focused on something that actually have a bigger effect. That small effect is what I mean by “feel-good” measures... they allow politicians to put a feather in their cap without having a meaningful impact.

Anecdotally I’ve known people who’ve lost a lot of weight by cutting out soda completely. But success at the individual level can’t be generalized to the population level. Healthcare is nearly 20% of US GDP and nobody doubts obesity is a real contributor. An outright ban on soda would be infinitely more successful and if that would solve the major problem of the industry, I think you’d hear more about it.

I’ll try to put a finer point on it. You can’t (shouldn’t) just increase the cost if access to alternatives is also part of the problem. If you don’t increase the access to high quality, affordable alternatives you will just make things worse. There’s a lot of discussion in this thread that is only looking at one part of the problem (consumption of unhealthy food) and ignoring the other aspects (like access to higher quality alternatives)

Re: Ultra-processed foods and the corporate capture of nutrition

#330
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I read the definition. It does little to clear up confusion. What constitutes a synthetic flavor? Is vanilla extract an example or do you have to go further than that? Emulsifiers are things that actually get used in regular cooking. According to https://www.thespruceeats.com/what-does-emulsify-mean-480592... . egg yolks and honey are both emulsifiers. Based on how that sentence is phrased, you'd think that an e…

It’s a bit like porn or automatic guns, hard to define perfectly but easy to see and discuss. Not one person thinks of egg yolks or honey when talking about “ultra processed additives”. I don’t think you’re making any point here about confusion you’re just ranting. If I were to try and extract some coherent positive thought out of this, I’d say a website that tracks and allows discussion of ingredients and products t…

> I don’t think you’re making any point here about confusion you’re just ranting.

How uncharitable.

> If I were to try and extract some coherent positive thought out of this, I’d say a website that tracks and allows discussion of ingredients and products that are good/bad would be interesting so we could stop bikeshedding on naming when obviously there exist many levels of better/worse foods and ingredients.

That's basically it. I'd hazard a guess that at least some "ultra-processed" ingredients don't have any effect on you at all. Some might even be positive.

People take medication for health conditions after all, and they help them live longer, higher quality lives. What could be more ultra-processed than that?

Scientists and engineers don't generally tolerate painting with such a broad brush, and it's at least obvious to me that there are several confounding variables here other than the artificial ingredients themselves (super high calorie density, for example).

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