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Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

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Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#41

Post by rootlocus »

saiya-jin wrote: post #4

I don't get the folks who expect, exactly from this studio, to have perfect bug-less game on Day-1. I mean, how far detached from reality and clueless about games in general must you be? There are very few studios who can produce such quality prior to release (ie last Zelda), but I guess they are not under such pressure to release on many platforms in parallel just before christmas. It will be an amazing game once th…

> I mean, how far detached from reality and clueless about games in general must you be?

Condescending attitude aside, I've played multiple games on launch day, and I even worked as a developer in a major gamedev studio. The sheer amount of bugs, glitches, poor implementations, and missing QoL features are inexcusable. Especially from a game that spent 7 years in development and was delayed 8 months.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#42

Post by Tade0 »

As someone from Poland I have my own suspicions on how all this came to pass - it's a reflection of the local work/management culture, one aspect of which is overpromising and sacrificing work-life balance to deliver - what's unique here that it's present on every level of responsibility.

That idea with working Saturdays for weeks on end is just one example.

I remember my mother, an artisan working in a theatre, having essentially a full month or two of those before each opening night.

My father, an engineer with a decent salary, would still pick up additional work and spend entire evenings on it. Hell, the first PC in our family was bought specifically for this purpose.

All this wasn't perceived as weird or unusual, because during communism working Saturdays were the norm. The parents of my friends would also be mostly absent, making the most of the rapid economic growth of the 90s. Unemployment was also fairly high, so it's not like they had much of a choice in the matter.

This environment created a management culture that either doesn't feel the need to improve and innovate(because you can always leverage the low cost of employment or put pressure on workers) or doesn't even know how to do that, so it experiments a lot - with mixed results.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#43

Post by consp »

qz2 wrote: post #19
indrekju wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've been playing it on PC now for ~15 hours and have only seen a couple of minor bugs. I wonder how the experience is so different for users.

Crashing here constantly. What GPU/CPU combo do you have? Seems to be rather sensitive to that. I've had no issues with any other games on this PC. 3700X / B550M / GTX 1660 here.

5900X / B550m / Vega64

So far had one crash in looots of hours of play, which was a memory hog which ate my entire memory/allocatable region and then crashed the game (saw it slowly rise to 99% commit). Seems to be configuration dependant, who knows what setting causes it.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#44

Post by sto_hristo »

That is what you get with a segmented market. Everyone with their own platform and developers having to invest a lot of resources and effort into adapting the same product for vastly different environments. An effort that is almost always in vain and never contributes to and furthers the actual game.

In a related note - wanna know why linux will never be desktop OS? 2^64 distros a software vendor have to account for. And when one distro dies, several new ones spring into existence - like CentOS for example.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#45

Post by Melting_Harps »

hulitu wrote: post #29
saiya-jin wrote: post #4

I don't get the folks who expect, exactly from this studio, to have perfect bug-less game on Day-1. I mean, how far detached from reality and clueless about games in general must you be? There are very few studios who can produce such quality prior to release (ie last Zelda), but I guess they are not under such pressure to release on many platforms in parallel just before christmas. It will be an amazing game once th…

> I don't get the folks who expect, exactly from this studio, to have perfect bug-less game on Day-1. I mean, how far detached from reality and clueless about games in general must you be? 50 years ago the quality of the code was much better. I expect some things from SW that I buy: 1. To run on normal HW (i.e. home PC or laptop dedicated mainly to web browsing and watching movies) or on the target HW 2. To have a us…

> 50 years ago the quality of the code was much better.

That's hardly an apt comparison when you see they're focused on rich World creation with many layers of depth as opposed to the rather linear 'white square hits white dot' style games like pong.

They were clearly rushed/pressured by management to release after 8+ years of development and with so many people at home with nothing but free time to fill and 2 delays this year alone, its very obvious to see what happened. I'm guessing this was bound to occur. Especially when modern business models are based on creating a casino addiction model fixated on capturing eyeballs and creating discord online rather than delivering a solid working product from day one.

Personally, my biggest gripe with games/gaming is the lack of fulfillment you get for the time spent after having actually achieved things in real life. I now look it as wasted time not doing things that actually matter or improve my Life and those around me, whereas my teenage-self would have regarded such an addiction to wasting time as 'fun.' Had COVID not happened I definitely would not have picked up gaming again and would have been at an arcade if I had spare time and the inclination to play.

It's really the worst kind of time-sink now because I don't enjoy it and have mainly used it to distract me or to take a break from real-life. And I somehow got paid to play watchdogs legion, too...

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#46

Post by rootlocus »

bayindirh wrote: post #20
indrekju wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've been playing it on PC now for ~15 hours and have only seen a couple of minor bugs. I wonder how the experience is so different for users.

Game software is a highly optimized piece of software. GPU & CPU make, model, or things like RAM amount or I/O bandwidth can affect a lot of things. Half-Life 2 was randomly crashing on AMD systems on launch. Valve was sometimes churning 4 updates/day. Then they requested some actual gamers with AMD systems to come to HQ for testing. After that point all bugs are ironed out in a week or so.

Hardware being to blame is plausible when it relates to visual glitches or outright crashes.

But blaming I/O bandwidth for bugs that are clearly related to game logic is naive.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#47

Post by Vaskivo »

qz2 wrote: post #15

Good. It's a buggy pile of crap on PC at least. I got a refund on Steam for it.

I have been binging it since launch. ATM, I have 40 hour playtime in it. I'm Playing it in a two year gaming laptop, with every graphical setting on Low. (I graphics don't say much to me)

Yes, the game is buggy. But, IMO, there are deeper problems that that:

- The crafting system is absolutely useless.

- The loot and equipment system is basically a "looter-shooter". Which I dislike. And make the crafting useless.

- The game economy is messed up. Cyberware implants and vehicles are way too expensive. And there is no incetive to buy any weapons. The loop is "fight stuff, get stronger stuff, equip the stronger stuff and sell the rest". After four or five loops you have money to buy something useful.

- Big problems the targeting reticle for interacting with stuff.

- The car physics is awful. The minimap is too zoomed in. And driving in first person is a PITA.

- NPC AI is really lacking.

- Quest design feels a bit lackluster. There are less alterative choices and nuance than what's in the Witcher 3 [0].

- The world, while visually and architecturaly well designed, it is empty. There are no side activities. No hotel rooms to sleep in, no option to sit at the bar and have a drink... There is a gun range that is only open for a short quest!

- There seems to be a lack of consequence in the game. I blow up and steal stuff and beal blows to organizations and the game world doesn't change with that.

I'm enjoying the game. And plan to finish it.

But I feel like CD Project Red bit up more that it could chew:

- I believe a push to have the best and latest graphical quality (raytracing and the sort) harmed other parts of the game.

- With a game having so much "bling", they should've added more stuff to do besides fighting people and questing. The places are only meaningful if there are meaningful things to do there. (GTA 5 had the same problem. GTA 4 did not)

- Writing and quest design should've been iterated a bit more. As I usually say, "voice acting did more harm that good to RPGs". This mean that it is harder to iterate on quests and dialog because it's expensive to re-record dialog.

- The Witcher 3 was more streamlined, the world was simpler, and had less mechanics. It was easy to balance the different systems. As well as game physics.

[0] The quest 'Wild at Heart' in one of the first quests in the game and set the tone for the general quest design in the game. https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Wild_at_Heart

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#48

Post by Kreotiko »

kolinko wrote: post #40
Kreotiko wrote: post #36

I wonder how this game got released in the first place. In another life I worked as game tester and I am sure that most issues I read on 2077 must have been caught in those test. If Sony really cares about their brand more than fearing the competitors they could have stopped the release.

I can imagine a year-long crunch where the devs are so tired and the codebase so messed up that the progress is not goes nowhere. You end up in a situation where you either need to have to start from scratch, or you release a half-backed product and hope it all works out in the end.

I can’t. We are not talking about a start up trying to deliver a product to test the market as soon as possible but a gaming studios delivering a polished experience. I really hope they didn’t have such amateur problems

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#49

Post by seba_dos1 »

Kreotiko wrote: post #36

I wonder how this game got released in the first place. In another life I worked as game tester and I am sure that most issues I read on 2077 must have been caught in those test. If Sony really cares about their brand more than fearing the competitors they could have stopped the release.

The rumor has it that CDPR got special treatment from Sony regarding certification - it normally wouldn't pass it, but got accepted anyway due to production's high profile and a promise from the studio to get things fixed with the day one patch. In the end the patch didn't fix things nearly enough so here we are today.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 removed from PS Store and refunded

#50

Post by remexre »

sto_hristo wrote: post #44

That is what you get with a segmented market. Everyone with their own platform and developers having to invest a lot of resources and effort into adapting the same product for vastly different environments. An effort that is almost always in vain and never contributes to and furthers the actual game. In a related note - wanna know why linux will never be desktop OS? 2^64 distros a software vendor have to account for.…

I mean, the Steam Linux Runtime alleviates this quite a bit for games at least; my desktop's somewhat exotic, but I haven't had any issues running Linux-native games through Steam. e.g. Chrome, Mathematica, and Zoom have all been easy to install too, the most I've had to tweak was replacing some of Zoom's bundled libraries in a previous version.

I agree for the general case, though; I'm hoping AppImage makes headway here; I'm not sure how it works with libGL, libEGL, etc., but my understanding is that for most libraries, it moves the "compatibility boundary" to the kernel's ABI. (I guess for libGL and friends, the use of glGetProcAddress etc shrink the compatibility boundary a bit too.)

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