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Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

latimes.com

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Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#51

Post by csnover »

ashtonkem wrote: post #48
haecceity wrote: post #25

> An internal Boeing memo described it as a “risk” to give air sensors to even one airline, according to a deposition of a Boeing executive. > “Flight attendant, pilot unions, and congressional supporters could use this effort as evidence that sensors are needed and ... to drive their agenda forward to have bleed air sensors required on all aircraft,” said the 2015 memo, which Boeing turned over in litigation. > Boei…

At every turn, Boeing is making it very hard to not commit to flying AirBus.

The irony is that Boeing are currently the only ones who produce an airliner with bleedless air (the 787); all Airbus jets still use bleed air.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#52

Post by Aeolun »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #9

I was not surprised this article buries the 787 deep inside where no one will read it. Honestly the bleedless air system of the 787 is one of the things that makes me enjoy flying it.

It’s weird they do that. It’s one of the largest red flags that indicate it actually is a problem.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#53

Post by ashtonkem »

csnover wrote: post #51
ashtonkem wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At every turn, Boeing is making it very hard to not commit to flying AirBus.

The irony is that Boeing are currently the only ones who produce an airliner with bleedless air (the 787); all Airbus jets still use bleed air.

That is indeed ironic, although in my defense all of my flights are going to be on 737/A320 sized aircraft. I can't remember the last time I flew on a wide bodied aircraft, and I'm not likely to do it again soon.

My issue is mostly that everything that comes out of Boeing makes me feel like they're more worried about suing them than them hurting me or killing me. Maybe Airbus isn't much better, but it sure seems hard for Boeing to get much worse.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#54

Post by hourislate »

vecinu wrote: post #19

Does anyone else have a hard time putting up with flying (pre-pandemic) recently? 20 years ago I used to fly without any issue but since they've made the seats smaller, the food somehow got worse and the TSA pre-boarding eats another hour of time I wouldn't have spent in the airport. I recently started trying to fly business class to actually arrive at my destination like a functioning human being and not anxious/sic…

The reason flying was easier 10-15 years ago was because passenger loads increased by 50% while airlines seat capacity remained at 2005 levels.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/564717/airline-industry-...

Airlines learned from previous mistakes and basically would not add any capacity until load factors were incredibly high and they knew they could easily fill another flight. Very rarely would someone get bumped 10 plus years ago but in the last few years it was common practice. The planes were stuffed full where even the very back rows typically left open for flight attendants were filled.

I used to take at least one trip every week for 20 years and it wasn't so bad. After 911 it became worse but the flight was still ok. The last 3-4 years have been absolutely terrible. Even 1st/Business class was a joke and always oversold. I developed anxiety every time I had to fly simply because of the nightmare of getting through the lines (TSA/Customs/DHS), fighting the crowds, no where to even sit, dirty planes, etc. Flying became like riding in a cattle car.

I still fly about once a month and ever since the pandemic it's a lot more pleasant. My last flight had over 100 empty seats and absolutely no lines or people at the airport. Reminded my of a flight I once took to YYZ from DFW on a 727 in 91. I and two more guys were the only passengers on the whole plane, 2 in coach and the other in 1st. Three of us on the whole plane. Felt like a Rock Star on my own private jet....

I'm confident that flying will become miserable again. In another year I expect everything will be back to shit/normal.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#55

Post by scarier »

Diesel555 wrote: post #50
scarier wrote: post #35

OBOGS is supposed to be a relatively mature technology at this point, but many military aircraft have had significant issues with it over the last decade or so, and it's interesting to see similar issues crop up in civilian aircraft. I'm kinda mind-blown that the air quality isn't monitored on passenger aircraft, because the military has been doing it for decades.

OBOGS is terrible. We fly OBOGS and non OBOGS aircraft of the same type. Everytime I fly OBOGS I cough all day. Liquid Oxygen - it's great.

It's cool to be able to do a back-to-back comparison. I guess I've always been more worried about cabin pressurization failing than OBOGS--oxygen lights are pretty chill, but I've heard some horrifying DCS stories.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#56

Post by ashtonkem »

Aeolun wrote: post #52
bcatanzaro wrote: post #9

I was not surprised this article buries the 787 deep inside where no one will read it. Honestly the bleedless air system of the 787 is one of the things that makes me enjoy flying it.

It’s weird they do that. It’s one of the largest red flags that indicate it actually is a problem.

Exactly! Boeing can't claim that engine bleed air is clean on one hand, and tout that a bleed-less air system improves air quality. It's either one, or the other, not both.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#57

Post by tootie »

vecinu wrote: post #19

Does anyone else have a hard time putting up with flying (pre-pandemic) recently? 20 years ago I used to fly without any issue but since they've made the seats smaller, the food somehow got worse and the TSA pre-boarding eats another hour of time I wouldn't have spent in the airport. I recently started trying to fly business class to actually arrive at my destination like a functioning human being and not anxious/sic…

In the two years pre pandemic I had to do a ton of business travel. I could expense whatever I needed, fly biz class for international. It still started to wear on me. I think it's just getting older. It's more emotional effort to be away from home. I started feeling some anxiety just about being trapped in a flying tube and not being able to leave. Also because seats are narrower and I'm wider.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#58

Post by jeffrey_t_b »

762236 wrote: post #11

Sounds like the Dreamliner is the only plane designed to avoid this problem. Oddly the article hardly mentions Airbus, so it isn't clear to what degree their planes suffer this problem. And I wonder why European regulators aren't addressing this issue (which seems implied by the article).

I wouldn't say "designed to avoid this problem", because I'm pretty sure that cabin air quality didn't play much of a role in the engineering trades regarding ECS architecture.

The 787 was intended as a more electric aircraft, from the very start, even called the "7E7" during development. An electrical ECS requires special cabin air compressors with big motor drives and power electronics, but there was significant savings for the engines by removing bleed air. It makes sense as a system: Electrical main engine start, generator-optimized engines/APU, electrical cabin air compressors. But the trade criteria were the typical ones: weight, installation volume, total lifecycle cost, etc.

The choice of a lower cabin altitude _was_ a big deal though, and if I had to guess, is the main source of a more pleasant experience.

The main ECS vendors (Honeywell, Hamilton Sundstrand, and Liebherr) all have cabin air quality products, which have mostly gone without interest by the aircraft manufactures and the airlines.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#59

Post by ashtonkem »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #38
echelon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US needs a more substantial train system. Sleeper cars are refreshing and train travel is extremely enjoyable.

Sleeper cars are better than an airplane seat, but I wouldn't call them refreshing. The beds are narrow, firm, heat/AC is a crapshoot, and train noises and movement can keep you awake.

For any serious work in crowded/noisy places, bring earplugs. I used to complete my Chicago commute (train/foot) using cheap , disposable 30db earplugs.

Re: Toxic fumes seep into the air you breathe on planes

#60

Post by ashtonkem »

TylerE wrote: post #47
echelon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US needs a more substantial train system. Sleeper cars are refreshing and train travel is extremely enjoyable.

There just isn't the population density in about 90% of the US.

As compared to France?
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