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Wonder

meaningness.com

11–20 of 26 posts

Re: Wonder

#11

I've always weary regarding this site because of all the specific technical terms the author seems to have created. But I see it posted a lot here. Is "meaningness" as a philosophy worth checking out? Can anybody summarize it for me?

Meaningness draws out the essence from Dzog Chen and Ati Yoga to point to the attributes which an enlightened tantric society would create in individuals. Enlightenment brings aesthetic changes, "mountains and rivers without end", not only moral ones, and these new aesthetics answer many of the critical questions left by post-structuralism about the implosion of meaning in relativism: while reality may be relative, t…

(I should say - I was compressing into two tweets, so a little detail is needed)

1) the mind's model of reality is relative, but we can only ever model reality as a whole inside of our own minds - reality as a whole is unknowable, even in principle.

This doesn't mean we can't know, for sure, quite a lot about specific subsets of reality: "is there milk in the fridge?" has a good, precise answer, but "what's it all about then?" does not.

But our answers to "what's it all out then?" shape our ideas about our lives, which in turn shape our behavior. So our answers to these "questions without answers" actually heavily impact our lives over the long run.

2) Meaningness is an aesthetic value in that it is perceived in things and situations, and can be created intentionally at times. The sense of purpose and significance, of rightness and beauty, may be fleeting, but they are as objectively real as musical harmony but with this principle applied across the entire field of awareness. A similarly broad concept might be "well-proportioned", which can apply to almost anything in almost any area, and "you know it when you see it."

How's that?

Re: Wonder

#12

I've always weary regarding this site because of all the specific technical terms the author seems to have created. But I see it posted a lot here. Is "meaningness" as a philosophy worth checking out? Can anybody summarize it for me?

Meaningness draws out the essence from Dzog Chen and Ati Yoga to point to the attributes which an enlightened tantric society would create in individuals. Enlightenment brings aesthetic changes, "mountains and rivers without end", not only moral ones, and these new aesthetics answer many of the critical questions left by post-structuralism about the implosion of meaning in relativism: while reality may be relative, t…

sorry for the non-sequitur, are you @leashless on twitter?

Re: Wonder

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaningness draws out the essence from Dzog Chen and Ati Yoga to point to the attributes which an enlightened tantric society would create in individuals. Enlightenment brings aesthetic changes, "mountains and rivers without end", not only moral ones, and these new aesthetics answer many of the critical questions left by post-structuralism about the implosion of meaning in relativism: while reality may be relative, t…

sorry for the non-sequitur, are you @leashless on twitter?

I am, yes. And I love chord keyboards, I used to have a Microwriter AgendA, and I still miss that user interface.

Re: Wonder

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaningness draws out the essence from Dzog Chen and Ati Yoga to point to the attributes which an enlightened tantric society would create in individuals. Enlightenment brings aesthetic changes, "mountains and rivers without end", not only moral ones, and these new aesthetics answer many of the critical questions left by post-structuralism about the implosion of meaning in relativism: while reality may be relative, t…

(I should say - I was compressing into two tweets, so a little detail is needed) 1) the mind's model of reality is relative, but we can only ever model reality as a whole inside of our own minds - reality as a whole is unknowable, even in principle. This doesn't mean we can't know, for sure, quite a lot about specific subsets of reality: "is there milk in the fridge?" has a good, precise answer, but "what's it all ab…

This is a good summary of what I understand about the work, though admittedly I haven't processed the whole thing. It's a fascinating read, though he spends more time talking about what meaningness is not rather than what it is.

Let me preface the following: I've really enjoyed my time with this work and it's highly recommended if you're interested in these questions. We're all building up ad-hoc models of the world in our heads so I doubt anyone who takes these questions seriously would agree 100%.

My problem with it is that it ignores the observer - we are pattern matchers and we're drawn to find patterns by biological processes. The pleasing aesthetic of meaningness is part of a neurological reward system to find patterns. We could think of meaningness in terms of information theory, but there are no true patterns that always repeat exactly, even patterns themselves are transient (the nebulous nature he refers to). That implies to me we're soft matching local patterns in an ultimately global noisey environment. I'm still struggling to see how meaningness is different than existentialism, and feel he straw-mans existentialism a bit to make it different than his own framework. I love the definition of meaningness, it's the most complete definition of that fuzzy feeling that we all get some times and I would expect it would have value in psychology or understanding brain structure, but I have doubts it "means" anything outside the context of our consciousness.

But maybe that's outside the scope of this work, and he's not interested in meaning in a cosmic sense, but rather in the personal.

Re: Wonder

#15
This is the first I've heard of this. The "Appetizer" on the website begins with:

Especially at turning points in life, people ask questions like:

Is there any purpose at all in living? Or is everything completely pointless? What am I supposed to do? How can I choose among the many ways I could spend the rest of my life? Does everyone’s life have the same purpose, or does everyone have their own? Where does purpose come from? Does it have some ultimate source, or is it just a personal invention?

These seem like questions without answers. Or, alternatively, the correct answer is whatever you decide it to be.

Imagine a dog or dolphin or octopus asking this question. We'd think: "Why are you asking such questions? You're a dog/dolphin/octopus. You do dog/dolphin/octopus things. That's all you're supposed to do."

Isn't it the same with humans? We do human things. Take care of ourselves and our loved ones. Help others who need help. Try to better ourselves.

Does it need to be any more complex than that?

Re: Wonder

#16
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same. Do you know of anyone else doing anything similar in the space?

Some other folks who are adjacent to this effort, roughly: - https://waitbutwhy.com - https://www.ribbonfarm.com You could also put folks like Jordan Peterson in this bucket, but IMO he seems more interested in resurrecting (pun intended) Christianity in modern form rather than exploring entirely new frames.

I'm not sure Jordan Peterson is trying resurrect Christianity, but maybe he's trying to resurrect Jung. He uses myths to understand collective unconscious (which is the really interesting part of his work) and then uses those metaphors on an ad-hoc basis to infer biological truisms with the goal of making people psychologically well-adjusted (which is where he swims in the crazy pool)

Re: Wonder

#17

I've always weary regarding this site because of all the specific technical terms the author seems to have created. But I see it posted a lot here. Is "meaningness" as a philosophy worth checking out? Can anybody summarize it for me?

I bounced a bunch of times too for similar reasons. Is it worth checking out? emphatic yes Summarize? I will try, and probably not do a great job; I'm still digesting it. The world is both "nebulous" [1] and patterned; observed patterns aren't really out there so much as a combination of "there" and in our mind. Some of these patterns are incredibly useful. One pattern is "the rational / modern world view", which let…

So, "all models are wrong, some models are useful" spun out into a whole philosophy?

In all seriousness, that is becoming one of my guiding principles (along with "divisions into categories are models"), so maybe I should pay more attention to this dude, except that he really is kind of hard to follow sometimes...

Re: Wonder

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry for the non-sequitur, are you @leashless on twitter?

I am, yes. And I love chord keyboards, I used to have a Microwriter AgendA, and I still miss that user interface.

I'm a fan of your work. I got this username because I registered here to find a chordal keyboard manufacturer [0] that I had seen on here but neglected to save.

[0] https://www.gboards.ca

Re: Wonder

#19

This is the first I've heard of this. The "Appetizer" on the website begins with: Especially at turning points in life, people ask questions like: Is there any purpose at all in living? Or is everything completely pointless? What am I supposed to do? How can I choose among the many ways I could spend the rest of my life? Does everyone’s life have the same purpose, or does everyone have their own? Where does purpose c…

>> These seem like questions without answers. Or, alternatively, the correct answer is whatever you decide it to be.

I beg to differ. The correct answer is whatever you decide it to be given the nature of reality. The whatever you decide it to be leads to subjectivism, which means you can do whatever you want. But clearly some activities are better for you as an individual compared to others.

eg. Working a job is better than robbing a bank. You know this intuitively based on years of internal reasoning, now think of why? Try to make that logic explicit.

>> Imagine a dog or dolphin or octopus asking this question. We'd think: "Why are you asking such questions? You're a dog/dolphin/octopus. You do dog/dolphin/octopus things. That's all you're supposed to do." Isn't it the same with humans? We do human things. Take care of ourselves and our loved ones. Help others who need help. Try to better ourselves.

We, as humans, are special in that we have a very high degree of choice compared to rest of animal kingdom. The most extreme form of it is that can choose to end our life (i.e. commit suicide), and no animal can do that.

So then, what are human things? Why is "taking care of ourselves and our loved ones, helping others in need, better ourselves" good choices? I am not saying these are bad choices. They are very good indeed. Again, you know this intuitively based on years of internal reasoning, now think of why? Try to make that logic explicit.

There is a very simple framework to come to these conclusions. Unfortunately, a large population does not come to the same conclusions as you.

Re: Wonder

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bounced a bunch of times too for similar reasons. Is it worth checking out? emphatic yes Summarize? I will try, and probably not do a great job; I'm still digesting it. The world is both "nebulous" [1] and patterned; observed patterns aren't really out there so much as a combination of "there" and in our mind. Some of these patterns are incredibly useful. One pattern is "the rational / modern world view", which let…

So, "all models are wrong, some models are useful" spun out into a whole philosophy? In all seriousness, that is becoming one of my guiding principles (along with "divisions into categories are models"), so maybe I should pay more attention to this dude, except that he really is kind of hard to follow sometimes...

I think a better way to put it is that all models are right given a situation / context / set of assumptions. It is important to understand the latter to apply the model.

I would highly recommend reading Chapter 3-5 (Epistemology) of Objectivism by Leonard Piekoff. It's a much more logical and easy to understand take on these same ideas.

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