Earlier quoted context omitted.
"toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause" Anyone who has grown up around religious fundamentalists like I did learns this at a very young age. Frustratingly, when you grow up around that, you recognize the behavioral pattern very quickly, but the upper-middle class, suburban raised people with two college educated parents that make up the bulk of software engineers at the FAANGs don't, and therefore th…
Struggle sessions don't and can't have facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-sess...
Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
231–240 of 460 posts
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've noticed a trend where toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause, usually something related to social justice. It's effective and usually short circuits the public's willingness to see the nuance of the issue.
"toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause" Anyone who has grown up around religious fundamentalists like I did learns this at a very young age. Frustratingly, when you grow up around that, you recognize the behavioral pattern very quickly, but the upper-middle class, suburban raised people with two college educated parents that make up the bulk of software engineers at the FAANGs don't, and therefore th…
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google tried to prevent her from publishing a paper, which is outside of their normal practice, then dissembled about what happened (pretending internal reviewers are anonymous, for example)
Didn't they push back on the publication because the paper was lacking in certain regards? IIRC it failed to take into account relevant recent papers, for example. Which probably could have been fixed if they didn't submit as late as they did.
To be clear, reading that reason in a negative review can mean at least two things, and I'm not judging which of the two happened here:
1. The paper did fail to take into account the results in some highly relevant and widely cited papers. (I've rejected papers claiming new results myself before now with "this problem was in fact already solved by X, published in Y".)
2. The paper was fine, but it didn't cite every paper published recently on the topic ever, and someone used that to shoot it down for whatever BS reason. Matt Might calls these reviewers snipers: http://matt.might.net/articles/peer-fortress/
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#234Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…
Is this letter public? Is there anyway we can see what those demands were?
Alternatively, anything that shows that you have indeed read the letter?
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#235A big reorg is coming to that ethics group.
Their job is to navigate, any way they can, a path that can be perceived as ethical for Google to exploit AI to further shareholder value without having to also deal with extreme pushback from media, watchdog groups, etc.
These people probably think Human Resources exists to help them.
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not only that, but she threatened Google with a lawsuit _before_ any of the current drama happened (excerpt from her email with regards to the recent firing/resignation): > I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which Kat Herlle…
Since when do people use "gaslighting" this way? She and colleagues seem to use it left and right on Twitter regarding all kinds of behaviors. I thought it had a quite specific meaning in the context of narcissist abusers intentionally making their victims doubt their own sanity.
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
But if employees are well-represented on the board then such actions might not be necessary in the first place. In this case, they might have determined that they have no other recourse to change the company's behaviour. Both firing them or dealing with them are expressions of management's political power, and making their demands public is an expression of the political power of those employees, and it's up to both…
No, they are expression of the fact that employees are employed and paid by the company to work for the company. You can agitate against companies all you want, it's a free country. But you can't expect to be paid by them while you do it. Not sure what "morality" has to do with it. EDIT (Since parent added the bit about boards): No, having employee representatives on the board changes nothing about this. The board is…
The view that the company is separate from the employees and they don't get a say in its direction is a construct of many years of political action. It's not some natural law; it's a political result reached through activism. Anyone is free to try and get a different result, and each side will judge how much power they have in this case, and try to use it to best achieve the outcome they want.
> The board is legally (and ethically) obligated to work for the benefit of the company.
But the board also decides what working for the benefit of the company means. Some person or persons must have decided that letting that manager go is better for the company than keeping her. If others were involved in the decision, they might have decided differently.
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#238In all the linked threads, sort comments by "controversial" for obvious reasons.
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only evidence of toxicity was an email she sent after being forced to retract a paper that she wouldn't have to retract under proper academic circumstances, based on feedback they weren't even going to provide to her. That's not toxic, that's anger. One angry incident, justified or not, does not make the case for firing a "toxic" employee.
I disagree. There were several incidents where she appears toxic (and we only know about the ones made public). 1. Absolutely refusing to update her paper with feedback from a colleague - the whole purpose of the internal review 2. Demanding that Google reveal who gave her critical feedback - presumably to attack them in some way 3. Sending an e-mail to her superiors/colleagues, making ultimatums and threatening to l…
Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO
#240You could hire a bunch of leading AI researchers and task them to do R&D to identify the pitfalls of latest-gen AI with a focus on prospective dangers, biases, unintended side-effects. You could ask them to create new methods to quantify the degree / severity of these effects. You could ask them to invent new methodologies to specifically protect against these effects.
Separate from all of this, they may or may not be tasked with a governance function to review or score internal models according to their metrics and produce impact reports. Perhaps they work side-by-side with AI developers to ensure their newly developed techniques are applied throughout the processing pipeline, etc.
The (non-expert) impression I get from ethical AI research is that it hasn't moved much past the obviousness phase. The revelation that the source material for your training set determines the behavior of your model. That models are not neutral or granted some higher perspective just because they're some sort of magic algorithm because ultimately they are statistical engines driven by their datasets. That models can be misused and misapplied if the end-user treats them so. And that models cost a lot of resources to train, which like anything can be translated into tons of CO2 emissions.
A more nuanced analysis would look at the cost/benefit of what the model achieves versus the energy cost or potential bias that would be present in any alternative method. For example, it's a strict win/win situation if GPT-3 takes 10 million tons of CO2 to train, but displaces work that otherwise would have taken 11 million tons of CO2. All models will have bias -- "bias engine" is actually a good way to describe the fundamental nature and purpose of the algorithm! But at least models can have strictly measureable and totally consistent levels of bias that perhaps can even be controlled for as desired, unlike manual human labor which will demonstrate wildly variable and much harder to control levels of bias. See, for example, the controversial use of AI models to set bail. [1]
As I side note, I hate the opening paragraph of TFA;
> Tension between Google's Ethical AI group and executives at the company rose on Wednesday, as employees sent a list of demands regarding the recent departure of one of the team's leaders — a prominent Black woman in a field that's largely White and male.
That level of race baiting in an Op Ed would deem it unpublishable. The effect (if not the intent) of that opening is to essentially shut off the reader's critical thinking skills before they even get going.
[1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/upshot/algorithms-bail-cr...
[1] - https://www.wired.com/story/algorithms-supposed-fix-bail-sys...