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SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

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Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#121

ELI5: why exactly did the clients get bad execution? Does sending order flow to trading firms in itself cause unfavorable execution? Or did the trading firms treat order flow from RH differently than from other sources? Or is it something else? And does the fact that RH was receiving large payments for order flow impact the quality of execution?

Here's an analogy I once heard from Matt Andresen (founder of Island, one of the major early electronic exchanges). Equity markets are like a high-end clubs in Miami. A club that doesn't make any effort at "face control" at the door will find that it's ratio of guys-to-girls will continuously skew higher. And both groups will eventually stop going to any venue where the guy-to-girl ratio is persistently too high. However guys generally are willing to pay more than girls for entry, so it's a balancing act between maximizing short-term revenue and long-term brand value.

Similarly in any given market there's the ratio of informed trading to uninformed trading. Generally the former are large institutions, and the latter are small retail daytraders like the Robinhood customers. Since active management is a zero sum game, a venue with all informed traders is not a place you want to trade at.

By law the public exchanges are not allowed to segment order flow. Imagine a club that's legally prohibited from discriminating based on gender at the door. As you can imagine, the ratio at these venue is extremely biased towards informed traders.

Dark pools and internalizers are not bound by that restriction. However they're legally obligated to meet or beat the best price in the public market. (More on that in a second.) Retail brokers like Robinhood are essentially like club promoters, whose job is to get paid for bringing as many pretty girls to these venues as possible. And on the other side the informed traders at these venues (usually just the internal prop desk) pay big money for the privilege of trading somewhere with such a good ratio.

Is this a bad deal for the girls being herded by club promoters? To a first order approximation: no. At the very least they're getting free entry and drinks, instead of paying listed fees at the public venues. Sometimes they even get other perks like free meals or zero-commissions from the promoter. Still it feels exploitive because the promoter is making far more money off the girls than any fringe benefits they're getting.

As a second-order effect, the segmentation may degrade the overall ecosystem. Eventually all the girls wind up at the private clubs, and the public ones become ~100% dudes. Analogously the public lit exchanges have become highly toxic. Which is bad because market makers set prices based on the quality of the flow they interact with.

Remember that price protection on dark pools is based on the best price available at the lit exchanges. This creates a negative feedback loop. Dark venues can improve on prices at lit exchanges by segmenting order flow. Which forces lit market makers to worsen their prices. Which gives the dark venues even more of an advantage, allowing them to price out even more desirable order flow. Which then makes the lit order flow even more toxic, and the public quotes worsen. Which then drives even more flow to dark pools and internalizers...

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, if you want to buy AAPL at $100 and as your broker, I take that info and share it with someone else, such as an HFT, they will quickly (milliseconds/nanoseconds) buy AAPL and sell you at a higher price. So, while you expected to pay $100, you ended up paying $100.10. Now that doesn't seem a lot to you but times the difference (10 cents) by volume and number of Robinhood customers placing orders and it can…

That's not true. A $100 buy order will only ever execute at $100.

This is wrong on several levels. First of all limit orders place a limit on the worst case price that can be executed but SEC rules impose a duty to execute orders at the best price. If there's a $100 buy order and the best price is 99 dollars, then there is a duty to fill the order at 99 dollars.

Second, the allegation made by the SEC, for which they most likely have very strong evidence, is that Robinhood didn't fulfill its duty to execute orders at the best price to the tune of some 30 million dollars.

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#123
post #118

If the SEC has gone through and has accounted for the 34 million in cost to consumers, why are they not having robinhood reimburse the customers for their lost money on the trades and then charging the additional 30 million on top for lying? Why does the SEC take all the money?

I think this is just a practical consideration. Execution fees are typically less than a few cents per share and are often fractional. It's impractical to offer up dozens of single cent refunds for current and previous customers.

Also, just adding onto my own post, I worked on a trading desk for a large bank. Shortly before I arrived there was an issue with order marking (the details of which aren't as significant and were caused by a genuine mistake). The SEC made us go through every trade the desk had ever handled and identify which orders were marked incorrectly. It was so tedious and painful that the bank wanted to settle and pay a bigger fine if it meant not having to deal with all that nonsense. The SEC were unyielding. The moral of the story is that there is no negotiating with the SEC once they decide they've had enough of you. I'm not sure to what extent RH have institutional customers but institutions have a fiduciary duty to seek best execution. RH are on a real legal ledge here. I wouldn't be surprised if this is just the start of a very challenging era for Robinhood.

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#124

Two years ago I left IT and started my own wealth management company...and now I'm back. I can tell you, the regulations on the retail side of finance are nonsense and help no one. Like gun control, bad actors don't care about your laws. The only people who are regulated are the honest ones, and the amount of regulation can put them out of business, or even dissuade them from being has honest as they'd like. If RH li…

That's usually how regulation works. Regulation is a moat. You want it to be really really harsh and then be one of the first few on the inside.

Because by adding a flat startup cost to an industry you make it impenetrable to upstarts. Then you can use a venture-funded company to get inside the moat. But once there are a few inside, the next person investigating will realize that if they also enter the moat everyone will be commodified. They will lose their money too.

They'll have to compete and like Thiel says in Zero to One, you don't want competition.

Regulation is good for protecting your business and for helping big companies survive upstart disruptors.

What happened to you is by design.

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you trust the FDA?

A good reason to trust the FDA is that they have contributed to the safest food in the world! Our strict food regulations in the USA make things like trichinosis very difficult to spread around.

What evidence is there that U.S. food is safer than Japanese food, or even say Canadian food?

I don't have strong evidence but I don't regard U.S. food to be particularly safe relative to most first world countries. It's not terrible by any means and you're right in that you won't get any immediate damage from anything you eat, but I suspect most other first world countries have food and safety and health standards that result in better health outcomes over a long period of time compared to U.S. food.

[EDIT] After doing some minimal research it appears my intuition is correct, at least with respect to foodborne illness, the U.S. is certainly good compared to poverty stricken nations, but compared to most of Europe, Canada, Australia it has much higher rates of foodborne illness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness#Comparison_b...

The deaths in the U.S. is the highest, but what's even more interesting are the hospitalizations. U.S. hospitalizations are among the lowest and one has to wonder why that is given that it has the highest death rate. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that because of how expensive the U.S. health care system is, Americans who do get sick avoid going to the hospital altogether. That is admittedly simplified speculation on my part, but it's a starting point for further investigation.

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#127

Small fines will continue to encourage this behavior. Robinhood was clearly and consistently not acting in the best interests of its clients and misrepresented pricing. Now it’s worth billions.

The ol' break the rules and expect the fines approach

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#128

It is a shame that these types of tech companies are always churning up such bad publicity... they literally cannot afford to be making these sorts of unforced errors. It just makes it that much more difficult for all the innovative and honest startups who are trying to bring about positive disruption. cutting corners and misleading your customers is not innovation.

After reading about companies like Robinhood and Uber I basically take "disruption" to mean "breaking the law in order to attempt to gain a competitive advantage and hoping to get away with it".

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't. But there are obvious power dynamics when large market actors can get people to waive their right to sue. There's a reason they're called "inalienable." They're not supposed to be self-alienable either.

You know that Robinhood users declare themselves investors, right?

Sorry, and the relevance at hand is?

Re: SEC charges Robinhood $65M for misleading customers about revenue sources

#130

If the SEC has gone through and has accounted for the 34 million in cost to consumers, why are they not having robinhood reimburse the customers for their lost money on the trades and then charging the additional 30 million on top for lying? Why does the SEC take all the money?

It would be nice if they hadn't gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and if they had the power to require them to reimburse customers.

There absolutely should be a department whose job isn't corporate financial games, but focused on the cost to the consumer and can require restitution for the consumer.

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