A computer science study plan to become a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#111

Post by worker767424 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #6

This isn't a bad list of topics about data structures, algorithms, and software fundamentals, but let's not pretend that computer science has anything to do with most software engineering roles. I studied computer science, and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. There were a few jobs where some of the statistics and math were helpful, but in my long career, I've seen very little overlap between computer science…

> but the vast majority of work has nothing to do with any of this stuff

Like, it doesn't until it does, and when it does, it really does.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#112

Post by indigochill » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

will_pseudonym wrote: post #42

indigochill wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These coding challenges used to be a very good measure of ability I'm skeptical. The stereotypical interview question involves reciting algorithms from memory, where the thing you actually want to know of a software engineer is do they appreciate how things fit together to meet the constraints of the project. > The problem is that I haven't seen any good alternatives. Something we've done before (and had good succe…

Do you mind if I ask what company you're with? I'd love to put it on my list of companies with good interview practices that I would want to apply to. If you're not comfortable with getting that specific, just for my personal curiosity, is it a FAAMG/big tech company, or other? haha :)

It's definitely not silicon valley. Small European tech company, very much just making things up as we go.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#113

Post by olingern » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #6

This isn't a bad list of topics about data structures, algorithms, and software fundamentals, but let's not pretend that computer science has anything to do with most software engineering roles. I studied computer science, and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. There were a few jobs where some of the statistics and math were helpful, but in my long career, I've seen very little overlap between computer science…

This on cue comment is quite trite, IMO.

I went through school and did just okay in CS. 12 years later, I’m much more interested in topics within CS that felt like chores for my degree.

In the context of getting a majority of job, yeah, it’s not great. In the context of being a better programmer, I think it’s worthwhile to understand the “pillars” on which you are building your “house.”

HN has an interesting dichotomy of love for all things CS and hate for anything that involves interviewing.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#114

Post by hardwaregeek » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

sxp wrote: post #5

Spoiler alert: https://medium.com/@googleyasheck/i-didnt-get-hired-here-s-w... > Last week I received a rejection email from the recruiter, and at first, I thought it was a mistake, and laughed it off. I checked in with my referral and he inquired into it and lobbied on my behalf, but in the end, it didn’t change the situation.... The thing that bothers me is that I didn’t even get a phone screen. I didn’t even talk…

It's a little frustrating how random the process is. I'd consider myself to have a decent resume for an undergraduate. I've interned at a "big N" so to speak, I've done side projects that are relevant in my field of interest and I'd consider myself to have amassed some domain specific knowledge. Yet my resume gets random rejected/ghosted from a remarkable amount of places. It's especially bad when I don't fit neatly into a category for recruiting. So many places wouldn't hire me because apparently "I want to work during COVID cause online school sucks" is too confusing.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#115

Post by bird_monster » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

vbtemp wrote: post #35

caymanjim wrote: post #6

This isn't a bad list of topics about data structures, algorithms, and software fundamentals, but let's not pretend that computer science has anything to do with most software engineering roles. I studied computer science, and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. There were a few jobs where some of the statistics and math were helpful, but in my long career, I've seen very little overlap between computer science…

Your comment reflects a common meme that can often be summarized as: "Real World" work doesn't involve the academic nonsense you learn in school. Many of the people who say this kind of stuff never really mastered the theory, and because they never mastered it they can't really use it, and because they can't really use it they find work that doesn't strictly require it, and then conclude it's useless... It's like whe…

> and because they never mastered it they can't really use it, and because they can't really use it they find work that doesn't strictly require it, and then conclude it's useless...

But isn't this statement too specific to apply to the generalization that you're disagreeing with? "Most 'real world' work doesn't require CompSci" is a generally true statement, because most "real world work" is incredibly mundane and repetitive.

So, isn't your take kind of the inverse of what you're talking about? "I enjoyed ____, so I sought out industries that required ____". Almost as though computer science is a specialization within "real world" work?

I guess I think that most industries are not the industries that you're seeking out. Most software developers are employed to combine already-solved problems with new inputs for money.

What do you think?

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#116

Post by gwerbret » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

This is a bit off-topic, and is probably a naïve question, so forgive me in advance for both.

I've always been under the impression that "engineer" was a protected professional title, just like "medical doctor" or "lawyer", at least in part because there are certain legal responsibilities that come with the title. It's thus a little confusing to see the title being used, here on HN and elsewhere, by self-taught folks who have not gone through any formal education or professional accreditation. In fact, it seems that "dev" and "engineer" are used essentially interchangeably, only sometimes depending on whether the particular employment involves actual engineering.

Does this mean that "engineer" is no longer considered a protected title? Or are software engineering and development (in the real world) considered so similar as to be indistinguishable? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#117

Post by caymanjim » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

vbtemp wrote: post #35

caymanjim wrote: post #6

This isn't a bad list of topics about data structures, algorithms, and software fundamentals, but let's not pretend that computer science has anything to do with most software engineering roles. I studied computer science, and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. There were a few jobs where some of the statistics and math were helpful, but in my long career, I've seen very little overlap between computer science…

Your comment reflects a common meme that can often be summarized as: "Real World" work doesn't involve the academic nonsense you learn in school. Many of the people who say this kind of stuff never really mastered the theory, and because they never mastered it they can't really use it, and because they can't really use it they find work that doesn't strictly require it, and then conclude it's useless... It's like whe…

I agree with everything you're saying, but I didn't make the claims you're disputing. I don't think CS fundamentals are "useless" or "nonsense" by any stretch. There have been times in my career when I wished I had a stronger background. In particular, I've worked for NASA and in finance, and in both cases, I'd have benefitted from stronger statistics and math knowledge.

My comment was that most (I would say the vast majority) of software engineer roles don't require a computer science background (emphasis on the science), and wouldn't leverage it even if you had it. If you do have a strong CS background, it opens a lot of doors, and in particular opens doors to--in my opinion--more interesting and challenging work. There's nothing bad about getting a CS degree. It's just not required for a software engineering job. I'm not being dismissive of the education. I'm skeptical of the idea that it's important for most roles.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#118

Post by vincentmarle » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #6

This isn't a bad list of topics about data structures, algorithms, and software fundamentals, but let's not pretend that computer science has anything to do with most software engineering roles. I studied computer science, and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. There were a few jobs where some of the statistics and math were helpful, but in my long career, I've seen very little overlap between computer science…

There's a big difference between understanding data structures and algorithms and being really good at solving algorithmic puzzles under time pressure. The former is what you need to know to do your job well (and much of that knowledge is at your disposal with a quick google search) but the latter is a useless skill that doesn't help you with anything but passing a coding interview. If you want to be hired by FAANG, don't waste your time learning intricate algorithms, but simply practice to solve coding puzzles in record time on whiteboards. It's a totally different skill set.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#119

Post by freeone3000 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

gwerbret wrote: post #116

This is a bit off-topic, and is probably a naïve question, so forgive me in advance for both. I've always been under the impression that "engineer" was a protected professional title, just like "medical doctor" or "lawyer", at least in part because there are certain legal responsibilities that come with the title. It's thus a little confusing to see the title being used, here on HN and elsewhere, by self-taught folks…

The National Society of Professional Engineers has managed to claim "Professional Engineer", "PE", and "EIT". They also have claim over "engineer" when used as self-promotion as a business or an independent contractor. However, they weren't able to have the claim on it as a job title stick. So, assuming you don't have PE quals: your consulting firm could not be gwerbret Engineering. Your job title at Microfang could be Software Development Engineer.

Re: A computer science study plan to become a software engineer

#120

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

CraigJPerry wrote: post #54

vbtemp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reflects a common meme that can often be summarized as: "Real World" work doesn't involve the academic nonsense you learn in school. Many of the people who say this kind of stuff never really mastered the theory, and because they never mastered it they can't really use it, and because they can't really use it they find work that doesn't strictly require it, and then conclude it's useless... It's like whe…

CompSci theory hasn't helped me with the complexity of the industry i work in. It hasn't helped me when i've misunderstood something in our domain. It hasn't helped me release / distribute a product easier or faster or cheaper. It hasn't helped me navigate team dynamics or how to work effectively with others. It hasn't helped me write better technical texts. So for some very specific cases, in my career (and i suspec…

I have a degree in math and physics. I used it exactly once, in one aspect on one job. It was down below 0.0something% - need one or three more zeroes...

... until I took a job in X-ray imaging. We were working on a surgical X-ray (C arm) that could pinch-hit as a CT machine. And suddenly everything was 3D coordinate transforms and fourier transforms, plus X-ray physics, up to my eyeballs.

The theory stuff isn't useful... until it is. And when it is, it helps to have it.