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Firefox Was Always Enough

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Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#391

Post by boogies »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #344
heavyset_go wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine a web developer learning just a few APIs and being being able to customize their web app for smart TVs This was WebOS in 2009. Windows Phone, WebOS, Meego and Ubuntu Phone all "failed" around the same time period as Firefox OS. I have a hard time laying blame solely on Mozilla there.

What was the hard part that caused Android and iOS to win? Was it convincing manufacturers to ship with them? Or was it just the first mover advantage for iOS and the network effects of the Play Store with Android?

Some part of it was MS buying Nokia and killing Meego, just as the N9 won glowing praise and awards with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#Reception

> The Nokia N9 was announced at Nokia's Connections event in Singapore, June 2011. The reception for the device has been very positive, citing the MeeGo v1.2 Harmattan UI, pseudo-buttonless design, polycarbonate unibody construction and its NFC capabilities. Still, many reviewers did not recommend to buy the N9 only because of Nokia's earlier decision to drop MeeGo for Windows Phone for future smartphones – often questioning this decision at the same time. Engadget's editor Vlad Savov said in June 2011 that "it's a terrific phone that's got me legitimately excited to use it, but its future is clouded by a parent that's investing its time and money into building up a whole other OS." In a later review, Engadget writes: "Love at first sight — this is possibly the most beautiful phone ever made," and "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan is such a breath of fresh air it will leave you gasping — that is, until you remember that you're dealing with a dead man walking."

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#392

Post by tomrod »

nfriedly wrote: post #356
tomrod wrote: post #59

Except for mobile, where recent updates made it a hot mess.

Can't say that I agree. I've been using Firefox on Android for years now and it just keeps getting better IMO. I'm satisfied with the performance and the UI, but what I really love the extensions. I know they rejiggered the UI a bit recently, but it seems like a moderate improvement to me. Also, I use Firefox to sync across all of my devices. I know you can do that with Chrome, but I trust Mozilla more than Google wi…

About:config is essential to fix rendering of text. As an example, Reddit renders smaller than full screen view.

Not to mention the loss of critical add-ons.

I loved Firefox on desktop, and for mobile the tradeoffs of slower load were acceptable for a secure browser. That got taken away, forcibly, and left a bad taste in the mouth of virtually every review you read on Play app store.

It was way more than a UI reskin, it was a complete overhaul. It makes me lose trust in having them maintain things like passwords knowing they can produce instability like they did here.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#393

Post by The_Colonel »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #167
kd913 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea from the old MacOS sure. However, now that iOS apps are looking to be pushed to desktop, do you really think that is gonna continue in the future? As soon as universal binaries/iOS apps becomes fully fledged on ARM Mac I can imagine Apple just removing support completely. It's almost inevitable the way Apple is progressing to basically move to the iOS style platform control to OS X. Even from Mozilla's economics…

Yes. I do really think that is gonna continue in the future. I've said this before and I'll probably say it in increasingly irascible tones, but "next year macOS is gonna become just like iOS" is becoming the new "next year is the year of Linux on the desktop." Yes, Apple will almost certainly keep making security decisions people (including me) don't like, but there's no compelling business decision for trying to lo…

Of course it would be stupid to cut it out suddenly.

The real successful strategy is to do it very slowly and gradually. With each release make it a tiny bit more annoying to install and run non-store apps. Make them slower - "this app is not trusted so it needs to be monitored for your safety which might negatively affect its performance". Users will prefer store apps and will put pressure on app developers to publish on app store.

If they do it well then hardly anybody will even notice they finally killed the non-store apps.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#394

Post by tick_tock_tick »

fragmede wrote: post #281
mekoka wrote: post #135

It seems to me that Mozilla isn't just technologically pessimistic, but they also just lack vision for the future of the web and what roles the browser could play in it. Right now, the only reason we're talking about them is that Firefox is sitting atop a sizable share of a practically impenetrable market. Very successful companies are being started around much less of a product, but Mozilla seems to genuinely have n…

Can be done with a browser in the future? There's no shortcoming of vision , the problem is monetizing it. A browser in the future is going to let me copy and paste seamless between mobile and desktop. What, are you going to charge 1 cent per completed copy and paste? Am I going to pay a dollar to get nightly builds of Firefox onto my device? If I have an Apple device that's not even possible!

I mean chrome already lets you copy and paste between devices https://www.popsci.com/story/diy/copy-paste-across-devices/ you just have to turn it on.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#395

Post by EpicEng »

yummypaint wrote: post #19
etempleton wrote: post #2

I will make the same comment I made on another post regarding Firefox and Mozilla: a few tips from from no one: 1. Rewrite the Mozilla mission statement. I read that and have no idea what your organization does. Mission statements seem like corporate naval gazing, but if it is honest and well written it keeps everyone focused on what you are working towards. 2. Refocus on Firefox R&D and core technologies - Firefox n…

Firefox is already the best browser and has been for a long time. The problem is that most laypeople don't even know it exists. Combined with dark patterns used by microsoft and google to steer users toward their own browsers, it's an uphill battle. I'll stick firefox and appropriate extensions on a friends computer so they can watch youtube etc completely ad free, which is a major tangible QOL improvement, but then…

>Firefox is already the best browser and has been for a long time.

I used FF for years before switching to chrome when it came out. Every attempt I've made since to switch back (windows and macOS) as been a disaster. Hogging resources, pages that skip around while scrolling, and rendering issues (perhaps GPU related) are a few of the numerous issues I've run into.

I try to switch back to FF about twice a year. I'm going on about a eight years with no success.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#396

Post by lordnaikon »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #271

Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. FireFox OS could have provided such model, in fact, its successor kaios is doing very well and one can imagine that in the future, it will be the primary OS of half the mobile users on the planet. 'Feature phones' aren't dead. They provide a cheap alternative to touch phones, are usually more robust, and allowing them to run web apps instead of MIDP st…

> Ditching Rust ...

have i missed something?

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#397

Post by tux »

Well written article, was a good read. I think that Firefox company should rehire you :-) You hear this FIREFOX? But if they don't, maybe Google will be smarter and hire you for Chrome instead ^_^ After all you started in "Chrome" group even before Chrome browser existed. Hehe

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#398

Post by vkou »

wussboy wrote: post #387
giancarlostoro wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. This is the meat of my problem with Firefox as it stands. I've not stopped using Firefox since the mid 2000's but come on, you need something more than just checks from Google. Charge me for a commercial version of FireFox that includes a VPN subscription and funds its development. Just do it ten years ago. Honestly, if they're not going to embrace R…

This most common thing I write on HN is that I can’t believe I can’t pay to use Firefox. “How will we ever earn money here at Mozilla? All we have is this world class web browser that provides massive value to millions of people, but we refuse to directly monetize. Oh whatever will we do?”

Charging money for the browser will quickly push them down to single-digit marketshare, and will make "works on Chrome, ship it" the only correct way to develop for the web.

If you want to pay for using their browser, you could always donate to them.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#399

Post by leeoniya »

wussboy wrote: post #387
giancarlostoro wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. This is the meat of my problem with Firefox as it stands. I've not stopped using Firefox since the mid 2000's but come on, you need something more than just checks from Google. Charge me for a commercial version of FireFox that includes a VPN subscription and funds its development. Just do it ten years ago. Honestly, if they're not going to embrace R…

This most common thing I write on HN is that I can’t believe I can’t pay to use Firefox. “How will we ever earn money here at Mozilla? All we have is this world class web browser that provides massive value to millions of people, but we refuse to directly monetize. Oh whatever will we do?”

also completely baffled by this. i'd have happily paid $100/yr if it went directly to firefox dev, not their other marketing shenanigns.

they fired so much talent to focus on junk to drive revenue, that it's not something i can do anymore. very sad.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#400

Post by myfonj »

> Remember what was really cool in Firefox? Tabs!

Ah how this resonates with me so much, I remember the difference of tabless IE and oh so magical Netscape / Firefox when those were new. I consider myself Mozilla fanboy to this days.

But alas, every time I try clean installation with default settings I cannot believe how … bad this became and how far it diverged from original experience: by now Firefox is browser with the WORST user experience regarding tabs usage, from my perspective.

Current defaults are: - Super slow Ctrl+Tab modal tab switcher, mimicking OS alt+tab app switching mechanic. But slow. And distracting. And not pretty. And considering tab bar, mostly redundant. - Ctrl+Tabbing order is, naturally, in most recently used order, so visual tab proximity means nothing. - Ctrl+Shift+Tab does mostly nothing [1]. No, it does not select the least recently used tab. No, it does not switch to tab to the left. When tabs don't fit the tabs bar width, Ctrl+Shift+Tab opens another (vertical) tabs list and lets you read titles and navigate with arrows. But usually you just instinctively press Ctrl+Tab to "undo" it, but now you stare on that Modal over the opened list and question your browser choice. From there Ctrl+Tab finally stops working predictably and whole experience breaks into horrible mess.

Don't get me wrong, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDown still operates well. You can still change some settings to get even Ctrl+Tab working the way original Firefox popularized. But still, this state of things makes me very sad. I'd really like to spread Firefox, but with such details that I cannot explain even to myself it is impossible.

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1576130

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