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Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

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Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#71
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they didn't stop the lockdowns once it was clear the stimulus was not going to happen.

Given a virus that requires hospitalization at a certain rate, there is a certain point where the hospitals end up overrun for all other activities. In an effort to stave off that danger, local governments enacted lockdowns with the intent of reducing the spread of the virus. The virus, in the United States, has an established death rate of around 1.5% and a hospitalization rate higher than that. It also experiences…

We had months and months to build temporary hospitals... Why didn't we?

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government. If you are going to shutter businesses and put people out of work, you need to pay the business owners and the employees who you have affected. Staying economically viable vs staying medically viable should have never been a tradeoff people had to make here, and Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around.

The FEDERAL government didn't do anything. STATE and LOCAL governments did. Why should the federal government bail out states for their actions? And yeah I will remember all this during the next election. I was a Democrat all my life until early 2020 and now I'm done. I'll be voting against them from now on.

The FEDERAL government didn't do anything.

Sounds like you do understand the issue then after all.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#73

Meanwhile, some of the strongest voices calling for near-permanent lockdowns came from the well-paid professional classes, who could afford to order Uber Eats twice a day and had zero chance of losing their over-inflated incomes. The continuing erosion of the middle class isn’t a good thing. Expect populist political rhetoric to continue growing.

It's what happens when you fixate on optimizing for only one variable (in this case total covid deaths or perhaps hospital ICU capacity). All other variables must be sacrificed to optimize the one variable, even if it means pushing millions into poverty, destroying industries, educationally handicapping multiple generations of students, etc.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a virus that requires hospitalization at a certain rate, there is a certain point where the hospitals end up overrun for all other activities. In an effort to stave off that danger, local governments enacted lockdowns with the intent of reducing the spread of the virus. The virus, in the United States, has an established death rate of around 1.5% and a hospitalization rate higher than that. It also experiences…

We had months and months to build temporary hospitals... Why didn't we?

Who were you planning to staff all of your temporary hospitals with?

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#75
post #49

The other thing not being mentioned is alot of families who could never afford to buy homes can now buy homes. It has also allowed alot of people to move into nicer areas of NYC that could not afford to before. Alot of people's quality of life has increased, and alot of people who lost their income on paper also lost their requirement to pay rent and avoid being evicted or just moved into their parents homes. There a…

Do you have a link for real estate prices going down? From what I saw it was mainly the rents that decreased.

Not directly in line with OP’s comment but interest rates are stupidly low right now. Wouldn’t surprise me if this enables a lot of people to buy homes. I know several people (late 20s, early 30s Boston area) who have bought homes recently and I myself am refinancing.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#76

I wonder how anyone at all expected this to turn out. So, businesses had to stop operating. GDP and income earned and spent, dropped. This by definition results in someone becoming poor - with or without bailout - the government does not have any of "its own" money - all money it can possibly distribute is taken from taxpayer's pockets. Call me cynical, but people working in the service industry were the safest ones…

> all money it can possibly distribute is taken from taxpayer's pockets.

This is the insanely reductive view of government spending that allows the Republican party to float austerity measures in the worst economic times since the Depression.

Taxes are not the only place that government money comes from. How would that even make sense? What do you think the Federal Reserve even does? Why do you think we have a national debt?

The government is absolutely able to create money out of essentially thin air when called for -- the question is whether we need to wring our hands about increasing the national debt of the largest economy on earth while people are starving in the streets.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government. If you are going to shutter businesses and put people out of work, you need to pay the business owners and the employees who you have affected. Staying economically viable vs staying medically viable should have never been a tradeoff people had to make here, and Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around.

It was state governors who shut their states down. Not the federal government.

The state isn't in any position to offer emergency loans / bailouts. The federal government needed to work with the states that were being hit hardest by Coronavirus, when they were being hit. Instead some got a random $1200 check and some PPP loans, when many didn't even need it yet.

States had a choice, leave everything open and deal with the loss of life, and still suffer as people would be going out less. OR shut down to help prevent deaths and hope the federal government would help (which it should have).

Instead it became a political battle to give corporate immunity, and nobody got anything after March.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#78
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the federal government. If you are going to shutter businesses and put people out of work, you need to pay the business owners and the employees who you have affected. Staying economically viable vs staying medically viable should have never been a tradeoff people had to make here, and Americans should all remember that when the next election rolls around.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close. There is a huge variance between states in pandemic control measures. If businesses are still open in Florida then why should Floridians pay federal income taxes to subsidize closed businesses in California? And states do have options for funding relief at the state le…

> why should Floridians pay federal income taxes to subsidize closed businesses in California?

Because Florida benefits immensely from supporting a state which has, if it were a country, the 6th highest GDP in the world.

The economy in Florida would be heavily affected if California left the union.

Your question is basically like asking "why do federations exist?"

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#79
This is a real and serious problem and I wish people would take it more seriously. The actual solution is addressing the barriers to work created by Covid.

I actively promoted the local Little Caesar's. At one point, they had so little business they were afraid they would go out of business, but they are unusually well-positioned to move to less risk of infection because they already had a pizza portal, it just wasn't being used by anyone.

I made sure to start using it and to promote to other people and to promote online ordering and ordering by phone. They soon were wicked busy and all orders had wait times and they began hiring new people.

I'm not against stimulus checks, but that's crisis management. It's not a real solution.

A real solution is solving the problems in the way work is structured that is keeping so many people from pursuing an earned income right now. And we aren't taking that seriously enough.

If you are in any position whatsoever to work on that, please do. I do what little I can with a small reddit called r/GigWorks, though I don't know that I'm accomplishing anything at all.

To try to limit the degree to which people get depressed over this: Keep in mind that we don't have hard numbers for comparing this with confidence to a scenario where people just kept working and more people died as a consequence or ended up permanently maimed by Covid.

Humans are terrible at counting the disasters that should have happened but didn't. High unemployment was the short-term cost for trying to lower the death toll.

Please take high unemployment seriously as a real problem and work on finding ways to employ people safely via remote work, contactless delivery methods, etc. The cure for this is getting people back to work. The way to do that while the pandemic is still ongoing is to take germ control seriously as a real need in every single job.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#80
post #49

The other thing not being mentioned is alot of families who could never afford to buy homes can now buy homes. It has also allowed alot of people to move into nicer areas of NYC that could not afford to before. Alot of people's quality of life has increased, and alot of people who lost their income on paper also lost their requirement to pay rent and avoid being evicted or just moved into their parents homes. There a…

Do you have a link for real estate prices going down? From what I saw it was mainly the rents that decreased.

I don't know all of the dynamics of real estate pricing in NYC so I won't surmise too much but here's what I can say:

Alot of people I know who were living in the city got mortgages and bought houses for great prices in really upscale suburbs outside of the city, the final push to realize they needed more space when working at home when their kids are also not leaving for school, when otherwise a family with an middle or upper middle class income might be able to scrap by in NYC. So the real estate prices may not be changing much in NYC because people are not willing to sell right now because they know it won't be like this forever, but definitely mortgages are "free money" in the words of my mentor ( a hardworking devops guy for twenty years who was born and up till now raised a family in a nice neighborhood in brooklyn just moved to a suburb ) and in those cases there has actually been a surge of competitive real estate pricing in the suburbs of big cities that it has become competitive.

I can't say for NYC itself as most people I know who were in the position to buy a house but waiting for the right time decided to move outside of the city. In my building the number of units for sale has quadrupled since covid but I didn't track what buy priced were before. I rent in a nice condo building and my apartment was $3700 before covid and the same floorplans are going for $2250 right now with a quadruple in vacancy in the building.

I think one thing I know is commerical leases are not dropping the way residential is so restaurants really cannot pay rent. I am not sure how commercial and residential pricing is averaged together to reflect overall real estate pricing in NYC.

I know for the few of my younger friends / aka single without kids buying their first condo in the city it became much easier without the competition of international millionaires. I am not sure if they got the places for cheaper or just ended up being the best option over someone with millions in the bank already/mostly asian millionaires.

Wish I had a better breakdown but that has been my experience.

In brooklyn there are alot of midwesterners who don't have careers that are otherwise service industry workers who have used the drop in rent to move into the city when otherwise it was too competitive. My chiropractors assistants who lived in brooklyn their whole lives now have nice one bedrooms in manhattan and can walk to work.

Homeless people for a while are being put up in nice hotels to stop the spread of covid and have experienced a higher quality of life than they have before.

I would say I've seen a net move up in quality of life even if the richest people with vacation homes fled because they had somewhere to flee to.

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