Bitcoin breaks above $20k • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#91

Post by varajelle » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

nwah1 wrote: post #68

johnpaulkiser wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by layer of trust? Bitcoin is definitely not "trustless" its trust minimized for sure. Lightning also minimizes trust in a very similar way. As a user you don't have to make any more assumptions when using lightning than you do already using the bitcoin base layer.

With bitcoin you can send funds peer to peer. No trusted intermediaries. Routing through a network of exchanges is more like routing through SWIFT or ACH.

There are no trusted intermediary in lightning.

If an intermediary is not behaving, the worst that can happen is that your found are blocked for a small amount of time.

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#92

Post by ur-whale » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

You may want to consider that the value of Bitcoin a constant.

The implication is that the value of the USD isn't.

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#93

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#94

Post by _sm6n » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

It's kinda sad that the pricing or market capitalization is the only thing that is being talked about in the "cryptocurrency community", instead of focussing on how the technology can be useful for society. Like for example if you look at /r/Bitcoin, there's a sidebar with "Submit text/link NOT about price", yet virtually every post is about price, even if just indirectly (Paypal joins the cryptocurrency bandwagon and the top comments are that this is good for the price). Searching for Bitcoin on YouTube is likewise not a good idea unless you want to listen to dudes rambling about the price for hours. Back when I bought my first Bitcoin, I couldn't care less about the price. I spent it almost immediately for servers and other digital services. I don't regret that I didn't "HODL" it. What really counts is whether it is sound money and all the speculation doesn't help in that regard. If anything, the usefulness of e.g. Bitcoin declines due to rising transaction costs and constant price swings.

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#95

Post by ur-whale » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #89

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

It's largely a collective delusion, it has value because people believe it has value. Fiat currencies and gold are arguably in that same category.

>Fiat currencies and gold are arguably in that same category.

Anything trade-able is in the same category.

Things only have value because someone, somewhere is ready to buy it.

It's called supply and demand.

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#96

Post by analog31 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #35

tectonic wrote: post #2

What's the carbon footprint of BTC like these days? Has any progress been made on mitigating this fundamental design issue?

My understanding is that a great deal of Bitcoin mining takes place in corrupt jurisdictions where power can be obtained for free from power producers that have been captured through bribes and other forms of revenue sharing with officials. That power is not necessarily carbon free. It seems to me that the nature of Bitcoin as a pseudonymous currency actually facilitates and encourages illicit power stealing arrangem…

Does this represent Bitcoin serving as a tool of government monetary policy, like the dollar, but a different government?

Could those governments pull the plug on bitcoin?

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#97

Post by hirako2000 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

There is arguably far less value for most fiat curencies, at least for future use, maybe we still have a working fiat system today.

Let's assume bitcoin becomes the dominant currency for payments down the road. At its max supply, each bitcoin would be worth well over 10 million USD (in today's value of USD). And it would keep increasing in "value" because of its deflation scheme (unless of course conscencius vote for upping the supply limit for whatever reason)

So, we have a fiat currency on one side, manipulated by (at best) incompetent politicians, suffering inflation in the near term with all the stimulus we absurdly accept, a growing global debt, without a solution to repay in the horizon. And on the other side, a sane monetary policy system backed by a very solid network (all those farms + battle tested software).

In a 5+ years, these comments will look funny when people will argue that a 100k bitcoin is overvalued.

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#98

Post by jayd16 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #69

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

>Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)? Same reason why asset (stocks, housing) prices have skyrocketed even though there's a pandemic going on: money printing.

This doesn't make any sense to me or at least doesn't answer the question "why bitcoin?"

Gold doesn't have the same curve as BTC. Neither does pretty much anything else. Why has Bitcoin alone gone up 20% in the last month?

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#99

Post by syllable_studio » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

syntaxing wrote: post #50

The appreciation and depreciation of Bitcoin is one of the things I don’t really understand. I get currency, capital flow, and asset to capital conversions. But for Bitcoin, where exactly is the value? Why is holding one Bitcoin appreciating so much faster compared to the USD? Is it because us as a society is perceiving the value of Bitcoin to appreciate (even though it’s illogical IMO to think so)?

So glad you asked! I wrote a blog post about exactly this. My answer is "The Network is the value." The price of a bitcoin reflects the value of the network using it. https://blog.syllablehq.com/the-network-is-the-value/

Re: Bitcoin breaks above $20k

#100

Post by nwah1 » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

varajelle wrote: post #91

nwah1 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With bitcoin you can send funds peer to peer. No trusted intermediaries. Routing through a network of exchanges is more like routing through SWIFT or ACH.

There are no trusted intermediary in lightning. If an intermediary is not behaving, the worst that can happen is that your found are blocked for a small amount of time.

https://themoneymongers.com/lightning-network-watchtowers/