Why (UK) train departure information is not open data. • Hacker News Board

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#11

Post by gmac » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:19 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

... and it would therefore work, as presumably intended, as a meaningful incentive.

Whatever licences the Government gives rail-related bodies ought to make free public data access a requirement.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#12

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:19 PM UTC

halo wrote: post #8

Joakal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have misunderstood the source of train information. It's a private company that's publicly funded. The Crown does appear to own the copyright.

My point is that the article sidesteps a fundamental question about copyright of government works. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to use the data commercially to maximise revenue then you won't see a problem with the current situation. If you believe that the correct way to maximise value is to provide the data for free to end users then you'll think it's wrong. The article implies the latte…

[deleted]

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#13

Post by sandoz » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:34 PM UTC

The joke of it is, if you dig around in the Live Departure Boards website you'll see that they hook into an API here ..

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/s/ldb/liveTrainsJson?depart...

.. which is, basically, open for everybody to use (in the sense that it requires no authentication). I use it myself to push live data to my mobile phone from my desktop PC.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#14

Post by bruceboughton » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:43 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

Except most train delays in the UK are conveniently below the 30 minute requirement for a refund. Often by just a few minutes...

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#15

Post by wallflower » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:45 PM UTC

If you are interested in transit-related information access, consider signing up for the very low-traffic but occasionally interesting Transit Developers group.

http://groups.google.com/group/transit-developers

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#16

Post by Maxious » Fri, May 13, 2011, 12:47 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #10

When the trains are consistently late, the train company must refund a portion of the money that rail ticket holders pay. If the data was open, this process would become automated and cost the train companies lots of money.

So? "Every month, Yarra Trams publishes its performance results for both service delivery and punctuality on the internet, on posters in trams and through our designated customer feedback number 1800 800 166." "If our service delivery or punctuality falls below set levels, we will provide compensation to eligible customers. The performance figures are shown above. Our performance in April 2011 exceeded the targets, so no compensation can be claimed." API @ http://ws.tramtracker.com.au/pidsservice/pids.asmx

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#17

Post by rvkennedy » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:00 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #7

I'd have thought the answer is quangos. But then I still don't understand why we, taxpayers, pay money to companies that pay out profits. Loans, fine, but why are we paying money that just leaks out in to shareholders bank accounts instead of being spent on transport and its infrastructure.

It's very simple, when you privatize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because of "efficiencies". The way this works is you can always get a private company to pitch a service for a lower price than you're currently paying. Then it's up to them to squeeze a profit from that service by providing a lousy service. This is called "the power of the market". But because the service is lousy, and the public doesn't like that, the government has to step in and bribe the private company to make their service better. This is known as "a public-private partnership", or PPP.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#18

Post by rvkennedy » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:07 PM UTC

thehodge wrote: post #4

I was actually angry when they revoked the licence for MyRail then introduced a £5 app that did less under a different brand... I still haven't bought it

You should try the hilarious spoof app on Android called "TheTrainline", which introduces such innovations as:

- its own, dysfunctional keyboard - because Android's keyboard was just too, er, fast. And didn't have a bright green tick button.

- an occasional feature, where after entering a timetable query a progress bar appears, and the app commands you to "Tap the screen" to make the bar advance. Once you have danced like a monkey for them, the app finally allows you to see the result of your query.

- no information about trains that depart in less than five minutes, or have already departed. Because why would you ever want to know about the train you're already on?

It really is a masterful satire of everything a corporate, money-grubbing app commissioned by sociopaths and authored by embittered misanthropes would be - an app that simply hates its users.

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#19

Post by arethuza » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:07 PM UTC

rvkennedy wrote: post #17

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #7

I'd have thought the answer is quangos. But then I still don't understand why we, taxpayers, pay money to companies that pay out profits. Loans, fine, but why are we paying money that just leaks out in to shareholders bank accounts instead of being spent on transport and its infrastructure.

It's very simple, when you privatize something, it magically becomes cheaper. Because of "efficiencies". The way this works is you can always get a private company to pitch a service for a lower price than you're currently paying. Then it's up to them to squeeze a profit from that service by providing a lousy service. This is called "the power of the market". But because the service is lousy, and the public doesn't l…

Like for like, people in the public sector in the UK often get paid quite a bit more than people in the private sector:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13329634

Re: Why (UK) train departure information is not open data.

#20

Post by jsvaughan » Fri, May 13, 2011, 1:13 PM UTC

The data is not inaccessible because it is a private company. It is because they do not believe it to be in their business interest to make it accessible.

Why that is the case is the real question.

Surely the (presumably small amount of) money they raise from api subscriptions and app sales (minus the development cost) would be hugely outweighed by the increase in ticket sales + reduced dev cost from making the data accessible.