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Gmail having issues

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Re: Gmail having issues

#261

Post by maxlybbert »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #250
mcqueenjordan wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good callout. The underlying issue of the lack of nuance is probably /state/. Being more nuanced about these errors probably requires managing state, which tends to increase the complexity and scaling challenges.

Nuance is not called for. The standard states that a 5xx SMTP error is a permanent error and "The SMTP client SHOULD NOT repeat the exact request" Gmail screwed up here, returning a 550 error, it's not anyone else's job to try to second guess that or retry in contradiction of the accepted standard. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321

The standard says “don’t resend,” it doesn’t say “assume the worst and begin removing user from all systems.” That was the mailing list software’s decision.

Re: Gmail having issues

#262

Post by hunter2_ »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #250
mcqueenjordan wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good callout. The underlying issue of the lack of nuance is probably /state/. Being more nuanced about these errors probably requires managing state, which tends to increase the complexity and scaling challenges.

Nuance is not called for. The standard states that a 5xx SMTP error is a permanent error and "The SMTP client SHOULD NOT repeat the exact request" Gmail screwed up here, returning a 550 error, it's not anyone else's job to try to second guess that or retry in contradiction of the accepted standard. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321

We're not talking about repeating the exact request; a subsequent request for the same recipient would be to deliver a completely different message: whatever subsequent message is sent to the mailing list.

Re: Gmail having issues

#263

Post by jeffbee »

octoberfranklin wrote: post #212
com2kid wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much the worst response possible. Hard bounces mean that email delivery services are going to start automatically removing, or at least stopping delivery to, entire slews of email addresses. A lot of clean up is going to be needed as a result of this. To add some more details, when using a 3rd party email delivery service, those services will either black-list or just outright remove email addresses wh…

I really cannot believe they did not immediately hack in a new rule to their SMTP server: never return a 5xx (permanent failure), instead return a 421 (temporary failure try again later). That simple fix buys them 24-72 hours to solve this properly. Yeah, it burdens servers sending mail to them because now they have to hold on to all mail (including mail that really is permanently undeliverable) for another day or so…

Why would that be better than just shutting off the delivery stack altogether?

Re: Gmail having issues

#264

Post by systemvoltage »

jolmg wrote: post #204
systemvoltage wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a cheap shot at Google. Shit happens, and they're not immune to it even if the servers are located in Zurich. Running a datacenter is no easy task.

I see it as Protonmail explaining to their users that the failure is not on their end and why they can't do much about a remedy. Seems purely factual. A cheap shot would be generalizing from the event, but I don't see them doing that.

I think I got this completely wrong. What you and other responses are saying makes sense.

Re: Gmail having issues

#265

Post by CGamesPlay »

lemonspat wrote: post #255
CGamesPlay wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, my enterprise account seems unaffected.

Serious question: how would you know that you are receiving ALL emails from ALL senders?

Totally valid, and I wouldn't. The status page indicates that "Google Workspaces" is affected, but I don't know if that is synonymous with what I have (which was Google Apps a decade ago, unsure now). All I can say is I was receiving emails during the affected window.

Re: Gmail having issues

#266

Post by shmoogy »

maxlybbert wrote: post #261
throwaway201103 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuance is not called for. The standard states that a 5xx SMTP error is a permanent error and "The SMTP client SHOULD NOT repeat the exact request" Gmail screwed up here, returning a 550 error, it's not anyone else's job to try to second guess that or retry in contradiction of the accepted standard. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321

The standard says “don’t resend,” it doesn’t say “assume the worst and begin removing user from all systems.” That was the mailing list software’s decision.

You generally avoid sending to known bad addresses or your reputation will be destroyed very quickly. The 550 response is (read: was) a clear "you fucked up, this user doesn't exist" prior to this.

I saw someone on Reddit say his SES was suspended for sending tons of bounced emails in a short period of time - it's taken very seriously by ESPs.

E: also user rtx a few comments below

Re: Gmail having issues

#267

Post by still_grokking »

jeffbee wrote: post #223
sellyme wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the companies Google might be relying on in their back-end, I think Oracle is probably pretty far down the list.

I can’t imagine what part of Google’s history would lead someone to believe there was any third party system in their production stack anywhere.

Didn't they use GNU/Linux form day one on?

Re: Gmail having issues

#268

Post by karlzt »

windexh8er wrote: post #195

Just got this from the ProtonMail team: > Dear ProtonMail user, Starting at around 4:30PM New York (10:30PM Zurich), Gmail suffered a global outage. A catastrophic failure at Gmail is causing emails sent to Gmail to permanently fail and bounce back. The error message from Gmail is the following: 550-5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach does not exist. This is a global issue, and it impacts all email provid…

>P.S. You might also consider asking your contacts who are still using Gmail to switch to ProtonMail for more private communications

Re: Gmail having issues

#269

Post by shmoogy »

jeffbee wrote: post #263
octoberfranklin wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really cannot believe they did not immediately hack in a new rule to their SMTP server: never return a 5xx (permanent failure), instead return a 421 (temporary failure try again later). That simple fix buys them 24-72 hours to solve this properly. Yeah, it burdens servers sending mail to them because now they have to hold on to all mail (including mail that really is permanently undeliverable) for another day or so…

Why would that be better than just shutting off the delivery stack altogether?

5xx error results in suppression list addition of an email, so future emails won't be delivered (by most ESPs), and not returning MX response would probably be just as bad, or worse (or result in millions/billions of emails being re-queued due to timeouts?)

His solution would result in exponential retry failures baked into most services, which would buy them a few hours, and result in no lost emails, and no suppression list additions.

Re: Gmail having issues

#270

Post by jeffbee »

shmoogy wrote: post #269
jeffbee wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be better than just shutting off the delivery stack altogether?

5xx error results in suppression list addition of an email, so future emails won't be delivered (by most ESPs), and not returning MX response would probably be just as bad, or worse (or result in millions/billions of emails being re-queued due to timeouts?) His solution would result in exponential retry failures baked into most services, which would buy them a few hours, and result in no lost emails, and no suppressi…

Inability to contact the destination would be treated as a temp-failure by the origin, and taking the service off the air could be effected instantly.
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