Live data from Hacker News

The Ballmer Days Are Over

brooksreview.net

141–150 of 218 posts

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#141
post #69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chromebooks as they are now are not attractive. Apple's mobile platform, MacBook, IPad, IPhone, is significantly eating into MS share.

Who exactly are you speaking for when you say they are not attractive? A large part of Microsoft's share is in school/org licenses. Another large one is for the unskilled users of computers. I would very much consider Google as a real competitor for them.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2385301,00.asp

I look at it this way. Chrome notebooks are priced beyond that of PC laptops, they offer no benefit over a PC laptop running Chrome, so why buy one? Further ChromeOs will have limited local storage, and absolutely no native apps. This means no Skype, no local movie player, etc. A buyer would actually be getting less for their money by buying a ChromeOS machine instead of a $350 laptop at BestBuy with Chrome installed.

The form factor for consumption of media, video and news, does not require a keyboard. In fact it does not seem to require much of the laptop form factor at all. The tablet may already be the best solution, time will tell. But ChromeOS is avoiding stepping on Android's toes, and is not expanding in that direction. And that is limiting.

Leasing will only be available for schools, businesses, and governments--entities already in long term contracts with Apple or PC manufacturers. There won't be much penetration in the short term. And when it comes to price comparisons, ChromeOS will not have the support base and personelle which is already built up around PCs.

Lastly Chrome notebooks necessitate a wireless data plan, but as of now no carrier gives unlimited access for a low, flat fee. That means no unlimited Netflix or Hulu. And judging from my experience with a mobile data card, the connection is not stable enough for video streaming anyway, nor voice calls, nor multiplayer gaming.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Howard Schultz and Michael Dell come to mind first. Larry Page is the most recent. Yahoo is a good counterpoint, though I'd suggest externalities like a lack of visionary leadership or a lack of intellectual capital, compared to their rivals, are more to blame. Edit: Schultz wasn't a founder, but I believe he was their first visionary leader.

The Page example is far too recent to tell whether or not it will be successful.

[deleted]

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#143

So this is just shareholder activism at its finest. A lot of M$ share holders are upset at the Skype deal and with the returns on the stock since Ballmer took over. Nothing new here, just that Microsoft lead by Ballmer has underperformed the market. I keep waiting for these folks to say who they think should be running Microsoft but that doesn't come up a lot.

I'd like to see Steve Jobs take over. It'd be his next great adventure. He can directly reach the other half of userland.

I think Jobs is fully booked. However, Schmidt is currently available. And MS could do with some adult supervision.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#144
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: I do not hold shares in any of the below companies. Apple and Google were in their heydays during this time period. If anyone is interested in seeing a really interesting comparison then go to finance.google.com and do the following: 1. Look up MSFT 2. Click "All" for your zoom option, this should give you from 1986 to present 3. Add GOOG and AAPL using the compare box Now look at the chart. MSFT is up 25,019.0…

MSFT was the overpriced darling of the Dotcom era. Ballmer inherited an insane valuation. Meanwhile, in the last ten years, net income has gone from under 8 billion to over 18 billion. This is not a failure and will eventually be reflected in the stick price. Source -- http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/inside_ms.mspx

An insane valuation? At the start of January 2000, Microsoft's most recent earnings per share was $0.90. It's share price was about $58 dollars. This would have given it a P/E ratio of about 64x. This was relatively tame by dot com standards.

MSFT's current P/E ratio is about 10x. Just looking at that number right there, most people would conclude that MSFT was a great value play. In my personal opinion it is indeed a great value play - but not so long as Ballmer is still calling the shots.

If market prices were solely set based on income then you would be right; the price would eventually rise regardless of whether Ballmer remained at the helm or not. However, market prices are more complex than this. They also incorporate expectations for the future. It is here where MSFT's current problem is.

If you look at the components of MSFT's cash flow their major income sources are the Windows Operating System and the MS Office Suite. It is unbelievable that either revenue source will suddenly evaporate.

The problem is that both of MSFT's core business functions are under pressure. This pressure is coming from the decreasing dominance of the PC as the digital platform of choice and the increasing prevalence of Internet-based solutions to problems that were previously solved by offline software packages.

While MSFT is currently conducting expansions into a large array of industries, it is unlikely to dominate these industries to the same degree that it currently dominates the desktop sphere. In all of the industries where MSFT is trying to expand its footprint it faces vigorous competition from fairly formidable competitors. Even in its core industries, challenges are appearing on the horizon. Here's just a really quick summary:

1. Video Gaming - Nintendo, Sony, Apple? (Perhaps for "casual" gamers only, but I am not well versed enough to know how serious of a contender Apple is as of yet)

2. Tablets/Mobile - Google, Apple, HP

3. Search/Advertising - Google (Look, this is a big enough fish, I don't even need to name anything else)

4. Operating Systems - Google (ChromOS in the distant? future, Android everywhere, tablets eating market share), Apple (tablet popularity may erode Windows market share)

5. Server & Server Tools - ORCL, Linux, IBM, etc, etc, etc

6. Microsoft Office - Nothing serious yet, but GOOG is salivating at a chance to chip away at this

Market prices incorporate expectations for future growth as well as performance relative to peers. In the near term Microsoft is making buckets and buckets of solid cash. In the medium term, there are threats on the horizon that are looming large. In the long term, there is a great deal of uncertainty and this uncertainty is not made any better by strange moves like acquiring Skype for $8.5 billion.

I have heard some people say that acquiring Skype was a defensive move. Look, defensive moves like that are the last ditch strategy of someone that knows they are losing. There were a billion strategies that could have been taken that would have yielded a better strategic position.

What Microsoft needs is a visionary leader that can turn its buckets of cash into something that can carve out a substantial, permanent, and secure foothold on one of the fronts that they are fighting. That sounds cliche, but it is what they really need right now.

Microsoft is a fantastic company with an amazing amount of talent in it. I actually believe that it has some incredible earnings potential, but unlocking this potential will take bold, aggressive moves - not expensive defensive posturing.

It is not my intention to bash Microsoft. I have a lot of respect for the company. However, something obviously needs to change in response to the new challenges that they are facing. The status quo is no longer good enough.

Sources:

Edgar online for the year 2000 10-Q filing, yahoo finance for price in 2000, http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Microsoft-Q3-2011-... for revenue break down.

I apologize in advance for any formatting strangeness in this post. In my defense - I am new here, and it is 1:31 am.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#145
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People invest in stocks in order to get a return. They pay the price of the stock because they believe the current and future value of the company is such that they will receive a higher amount of money when they sell the stock. Stocks that issue dividends modify that arrangement because one doesn't need to sell the stock at a higher price to receive a return, since the dividend is providing a return all the time.

The traditional view of efficient market stock valuation was that the stock price = the net present value of the future dividend stream. Of course, especially in technology, that doesn't really represent how things actually work. But theoretically stock price represents money you'll be paid out over time rather than some greater fool theory. As for the basic point here though. Yes, an investor cares about total retur…

Makes sense. Currently MSFT stock is valued at holding shares for approximately 24 years by that measure. That seems a bit low even so.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#146
I think it's a disservice to Ballmer to not consider that every business goes up and down.

This chart (courtesy turar) is the real story -> http://ycharts.com/companies/MSFT/net_income#compCos=AAPL,GO...

It just bothers all the Silicon Valley tech press that Microsoft continues to thrash its competitors.

Google makes money via search. Apple started off with fucking mp3 players and now makes 'post-PC' devices.

It just bothers SiValley that no one can touch the Windows domination.

Microsoft made $5 billion+ in profit last quarter. The CEO who's been in charge for the last 10 years should be given a prize for surviving and growing the company's profits.

A new emerging company will always have more room to grow. If you consider each company at its core competency they are all dominating.

Google has 64% or so search share. Bing+yahoo get 30% or so. Microsoft has 90%+ desktop OS share. After 16 or 20 continuous quarters of growth Mac is still less than 10%. Apple is dominating smartphones (though Android might slow it down, notably without making any profit itself - unless you want to count it as a defence for mobile search). It's also dominating Tablets and trying to change things - because it doesn't want to fight Microsoft head-on in PCs - Just too difficult given Microsoft's advantages.

So each company is dominating its niche and trying to find ways to make its niche dominate the entire tech landscape.

Microsoft still being so dominant and the success of Windows 7 point to Sinofsky and Ballmer being God level. Growing profits from a couple of billion a quarter to $5 billion to $6 billion a quarter is extremely impressive.

Apple's growth is more impressive - However, that doesn't mean Microsoft's profits are unimpressive and it'd be foolish to take your personal dislike of Microsoft as a reason to discount some really solid work by CEO Ballmer.

Finally, Ballmer's first duty is to Microsoft and himself and Gate and Microsoft people. Who fucking cares what the vultures of Wall Street and shareholders who don't do squat think.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you (or someone else) please explain this in a little more detail? I understand the concept that a stock that pays dividends won't rise the same way as one that doesn't, but how does one "correct" for this effect to calculate market caps? Are you implying that all those stories about Apple surpassing MSFT's market-cap were misleading due to this fact? Thanks

As the article mentions the job of a CEO is to increase shareholder value, dividends are part of that value. MSFT has issued quarterly and sometimes annual dividends which are currently at 16 cents a share. In total, MS has issued $6.35 in dividends since 2005, this is fully 25% of the current stock price.

In fact the company issued a special $30 billion dividend early in Ballmer's tenure. The Federal Reserve had to correct for this in their quarterly report, because it was an economic event felt across the entire country.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting choice of words on his part. The stock goes down for every company. Anytime a dividend is declared the stock price is adjusted down by that same amount.

That's true. Though he also said this (it was paraphrased by a reporter, so it's not a direct quote): Shareholders benefit more from leaving their money with him and reaping a handsome return than by getting a regular payout and depleting the Berkshire war chest. *Same source as above

Interesting. If a company pays dividends, does that mean it doesn't have confidence that it can make as much money as its investors could make by investing their money elsewhere?

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#149
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSFT was the overpriced darling of the Dotcom era. Ballmer inherited an insane valuation. Meanwhile, in the last ten years, net income has gone from under 8 billion to over 18 billion. This is not a failure and will eventually be reflected in the stick price. Source -- http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/inside_ms.mspx

An insane valuation? At the start of January 2000, Microsoft's most recent earnings per share was $0.90. It's share price was about $58 dollars. This would have given it a P/E ratio of about 64x. This was relatively tame by dot com standards. MSFT's current P/E ratio is about 10x. Just looking at that number right there, most people would conclude that MSFT was a great value play. In my personal opinion it is indeed…

64x being tame by dot com standards still doesn't make it cheap!

As for the earnings argument, look at it this way - Apple and Microsoft both made about 18B after taxes in 2010. Difference is, Microsoft's been printing money for almost a decade. Google doesn't even come close.

It's a fantastically profitable company. You can speculate about the future however you want, the fact remains that this company that until a year or two ago made more than Apple and Google combined is priced far below that combination.

Re: The Ballmer Days Are Over

#150
post #60
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre-antitrust days, that would be exactly what MS would have done. But it has been battered and bruised by the investigations and must have sworn to themselves "never again" will they ever devote managerial time to do what could have been solved by an outright purchase.

I think this is a key point. Ballmer has been hogtied with the fallout of the anti-trust stuff. Microsoft can't use it's "installed base" advantage in the same way it once could. We'll see how great Google does once it inevitably faces the same issue.

Actually, I think it is that whether bad memories can get institutionalised. If Balmer leaves, that body of bad memories will be gone, and people more willing to take risks again. We need to remember the software landscape has changed considerably. What might not be permissible of Microsoft in the 90s may now be fair game.
Post reply on HN