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Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

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Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#151

I keep coming back to my default idea here - that PII needs to be seen as legally owned by me and only licensed to others for use. The default legal framework should include medical / epidemiology research as freely licensed and commercial use as ... well let's just say i think my license conditions will be expensive. If an advertising channel then shows ads that breach license they are liable. A fairly simple licens…

I always wondered what's stopping a rival to Facebook that offers users a share of the money they are generating. Besides the scale barrier to entry of course. Generally speaking, people like money and will switch products and services that puts money in their pocket.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything reasonable about either of these: 1. Are the freedoms of corporations to act without the coercion of the state more important than the freedom of citizens to act without the subtle but effective coercion of corporate persuasion? The case for individual freedom doesn't always imply the absence of action by the state. 2. Would restricting manipulative practices by businesses really lead t…

Corporations are just voluntary associations of people, are they not? It seems strange to allow something for an individual, but to forbid groups of people to associate with each other and carry out the same activity. I also think that calling persuasion 'coercion' is misleading. Coercion implies the threat of force or violence. You and your family still have the choice of switching off your TV, not using facebook or…

In another discussion on philosophy someone mentioned a principle they didn't have a name for, but applies here as well. Their example was that you can ethically look at a license plate and memorize it, but if you get a network of people at strategic positions of a town to meticulously write down all license plates 24/7 and collect this in a central place, that becomes an unethical/illegal privacy violation.

Enough quantitative change becomes qualitative. Ice is just a bunch of water molecules just a bit differently organized. Graphite is worthless, even though it's the same atoms as diamond, but differently organized.

Many people joining together into a corporation can become its own thing, acting as if it had "goals" on its own that may be not in line with the goals of the individual participants. Corporations are real entities separate from individuals. It's emergence. It's a "socially constructed" entity but no less real.

Yuval Harari describes this very convincingly in Sapiens.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#153
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem lies not with the technology, but with the gross asymmetries created by wealth and power imbalances. There is an enormous difference in the danger posed by an individual salesperson using cognitive bias on a personal level, and a multibillion-dollar conglomerate using it in an automated, industrial way to exploit millions of people. Those two situations should be regulated very differently.

But even with large corporations, how far would you go and what is considered a bias?I buy Apple laptops for the irrational reason that I find them pretty. I am biased towards spending money on items I find aesthetically pleasing. Should Apple be banned from making pretty laptops? Should they be legally restrained from overpricing their products because it creates a possibly unwarrented impression that they are "prem…

What's a monopoly? What is a business expense? What's NSFW? There are lots of gray areas in regulation, to the point where ambiguity is more the rule than the exception. This is just another aspect of complex behavior that, now that we see it abused, we realize we need to regulate.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#154
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even with large corporations, how far would you go and what is considered a bias?I buy Apple laptops for the irrational reason that I find them pretty. I am biased towards spending money on items I find aesthetically pleasing. Should Apple be banned from making pretty laptops? Should they be legally restrained from overpricing their products because it creates a possibly unwarrented impression that they are "prem…

What's a monopoly? What is a business expense? What's NSFW? There are lots of gray areas in regulation, to the point where ambiguity is more the rule than the exception. This is just another aspect of complex behavior that, now that we see it abused, we realize we need to regulate.

Well, yes, but since you are a proponent of regulation, I was asking where you would draw the line. Presumably you have given it some thought.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that be a great outcome? Cheap cars or cheap cola? That's better than more expensive products (because of the cost of advertising that's turned into billboards and banner ads.)

Cheap cars that break down fast aren't good for anyone.

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Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#156
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping from ads to enslavement is one of the biggest stretches I've seen on HN...

It might seem like a stretch to us, but it was actually used to justify slavery in the past. As early as Aristotle who thought that slaves didn't have the ability to think properly and therefore needed masters to tell them what to do.

Hell, I'd go right before Aristotle. The whole allegory of the cave from Plato/Socrates is most likely the first non-religious justification in western philosophy (which was promulgated) which explains this "the people on the bottom deserve it and are correctly segmented" idea.

Idiot farmers, who are not educated and don't see reality for how it is (only shadows on the wall), cannot be trusted to run your state. Only those who see reality for how it is (those who are dialectically educated in a school) should be anywhere near power.

I think that even today, this notion of "you are low/stupid therefor we should not listen to you" is almost everywhere in the west.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#157

I wrote this for a related article yesterday: --- If we know that humans have all sorts of cognitive biases, how come it's ok to use that fact while at the same time we insist there's some kind of free market? Say you discover that putting good-looking women next to cars causes the sale of cars to increase. Why does nobody question whether it is legitimate to do so? It's as if there's a line between actively lying ("…

Education is the best mitigation. Knowing that we have biases helps us recognize when it is happening. Most of the pushback to advertising that I've seen uses either asceticism or anti-consumerism language instead of cutting to the heart of what's going on.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#158

I said it before I will say it again: The new thing, and the key point here is scale . You can discuss persuasion or cognitive bias away until everyone gets an aneurysm, sure. Some example: You can't not communicate. So even not persuading is persuading. What if the presidential candidate would just not give a scheduled speech? How do you communicate information objectively? Casual language creates bias, so does scie…

Twitter CEO said we can give them the right to speak, but that doesn't mean the right to go viral. I think "viral" is an apt term - these are mind viruses that are 95% harmful.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#159

imagine an advertisement so effective that anyone who saw it would immediately buy the product at whatever price asked as long as they could afford it. Imagining this we can see that there is obviously some limit beyond which advertising must be curbed, and admitting this the question just becomes at what point must advertising actually be curbed? Of course one could argue that such an advertisement must be for a pro…

The closest thing is probably a very charming, attractive/successful person soliciting you in person, at a place where you're open to buying that product (let's say a mall, or specialty store) or are a captive audience. Maybe we should ban the way luxury brands are sold, or military recruitment at high schools.

Re: Should There Be Limits on Persuasive Technologies?

#160

I wrote this for a related article yesterday: --- If we know that humans have all sorts of cognitive biases, how come it's ok to use that fact while at the same time we insist there's some kind of free market? Say you discover that putting good-looking women next to cars causes the sale of cars to increase. Why does nobody question whether it is legitimate to do so? It's as if there's a line between actively lying ("…

The law of Equity in various countries constantly evolves to cope with exactly these kinds of fuzzy logic questions.

Just today, in fact, I read this article: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3697726

Recent scholarship engaging with the impact of digital technology on contract law has suggested that practitioners and researchers will need to give proper consideration to the ‘role of equitable remedies in the context of contracts drafted in whole or part in executable code’. More generally, a raft of challenges stem from the increasingly active role digital technologies play in contractual relations.

Faced with these challenges, instinct may dictate attempting to tame the technological beast with a variety of regulatory responses spanning the full spectrum of possibilities, from legal requirements to voluntary codes of conduct or standards. While regulatory action may be a priority from a public policy perspective, the seeming trustworthiness of algorithms, and the consequent reliance placed on them by contracting parties carry the inherent risk of lack of autonomy and fully‐informed independent decision‐making that, in Australia at least, is addressed by equity through the doctrine of undue influence.

This article explores whether this traditional doctrine can adapt to operate alongside regulation in dealing with some of the challenges presented by algorithmic contracting. Specifically, it focuses on those contracts where algorithms play an active role not only in the execution, but in the formation of the contract, as these are the “algorithmic contracts” that challenge the very fundamentals of contract law.

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