Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#431

Post by Mountain_Skies » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

billylindeman wrote: post #423

SmokeyHamster wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partially agree. However, Elon Musk has personally moved to Texas, and he's begun moving some operations of his companies there as well, like SpaceX and Tesla. And those are certainly disruptors. You're underestimating just how toxic California's political climate has become towards business. Democrats see them as bottomless pits of money to be abused and extorted, while giving them nothing back in return. Some com…

The political climate in California is astonishingly toxic and disconnected from the realities of the market. I for one cannot wait to leave this place for greener pastures. California's answer to everything is raise taxes. And everyone cheers. And nothing gets fixed.

The trick is, will those voting for taxes to be raised do the same when they relocate elsewhere? California is not a dictatorship. The people of the state have voted for this situation.

I realize that not everyone in California votes and thinks the same. Those leaving the state might not be reflective of the voting patterns of the state as a whole but doubt this migration out of California is impactless on the places those leaving go to.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#432

Post by JMTQp8lwXL » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #429

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But income taxes are lower. A $200k income has an effective state tax rate of 7.67% in California and 4.95% in Illinois (IL has a flat tax rate). And considering real estate is much cheaper in Chicago, a home that's half as much would offer the same standard of living, when compared to SF. So you could pay the same amount in property taxes, and less income tax.

IL tax rates will have to go to pay for all of the debt for their defined benefit pensions and retiree healthcare. CA also has that problem, but not to the degree IL has. IL has fewer high income earners to spread the pain around, and higher debt amounts overall. It’s part of the reason why land is so much cheaper in IL.

Illinois voters defeated an initiative to implement graduated income tax in the November 2020 election:

https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois_Allow_for_Graduated_Income_...

Agreed the state has financial issues, but it remains unclear if the upper middle class will bear the responsibility.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#433

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

francisofascii wrote: post #385

almost_usual wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and Cook County has a property tax rate that is nearly 2x San Francisco county.

Which is a good thing. Higher property taxes leads to lower, more realistic real estate prices for new buyers. See Prop 13.

It’s only a good thing if higher property taxes lead to investments in government services and infrastructure.

It’s a bad thing if higher property taxes go towards paying down disproportionate levels of debt.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#434

Post by random5634 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #406

jariel wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"HP and Oracle don’t exactly represent the heart of Silicon Valley today and what makes it special/unique. I actually think zombie corporations like Oracle," This sentiment is problematic. Oracle has 130 000 employees and $40B in revenue. That's massive. They are a tech company, not a media company like FB. They are a lynchpin, just because 'we don't like them' doesn't make them 'not' that. It's like Burning Man: eve…

I agree with everyone's sentiment that Oracle and HP are dinosaurs lead by people in the finance department, but I also agree with yours. These companies are also canaries. We've crossed the tax and bureaucracy threshold that companies are willing to deal with. I predict that it will continue to be a slow transition until a tax friendly state with a decent tech hub joins California, Montana, North Dakota, and Oklahom…

The AB5 mess is just emblematic. I'm a "big goverment" supporter, but not so into the totally incompetent govt. The number of loopholes that had to be carved out of this law was ridiculous.

What happened to good infrastructure, education, safety, health care, raise the federal minimum wage etc?

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#435

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

pb7 wrote: post #306

type_enthusiast wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you're implying that old people are the reason for high housing prices in SV. Respectfully, what are the bad policies my parents are responsible for, besides pioneering the technology that makes you want to live in SV? And buying a house for 85k in a nice neighborhood in order to do so, without forseeing that Facebook and friends were going to move in and make their house unaffordable were it not for the prot…

What gives your parents more right to live there than anyone else? Just because they were born first? What about the people that will pioneer the next generation of technology? You’re not entitled to live where you want just because you set up shop there first. This is one of the fundamental reasons property taxes exist. Otherwise, most of the land in the US would be squatted on by powerful families of centuries past…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#436

Post by verelo » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #426

dkobran wrote: post #16

HP and Oracle don’t exactly represent the heart of Silicon Valley today and what makes it special/unique. I actually think zombie corporations like Oracle, companies that haven’t innovated in decades and instead rely on an army of sales people to sell legacy software, are somewhat the antithesis of Silicon Valley which is really about real technological innovation and disruption at it’s core. I know there are lots of…

> I actually think zombie corporations like Oracle, companies that haven’t innovated in decades and instead rely on an army of sales people to sell legacy software. Those army of sales people are probably now selling you the latest and greatest in vendor lock-in on behalf of AWS [0] and GCP [1]. There is no escaping the sales army :) [0] https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/aws-takes-aim-at-oracle-by-hi... [1] https://www.…

Are you suggesting Oracle wasn't a vendor lock in ploy from the start? I feel like they've just gone from one vendor lock-in to another.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#437

Post by johnzim » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

billylindeman wrote: post #423

SmokeyHamster wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partially agree. However, Elon Musk has personally moved to Texas, and he's begun moving some operations of his companies there as well, like SpaceX and Tesla. And those are certainly disruptors. You're underestimating just how toxic California's political climate has become towards business. Democrats see them as bottomless pits of money to be abused and extorted, while giving them nothing back in return. Some com…

The political climate in California is astonishingly toxic and disconnected from the realities of the market. I for one cannot wait to leave this place for greener pastures. California's answer to everything is raise taxes. And everyone cheers. And nothing gets fixed.

It's the latter that really bugs me.

I'm willing and even happy to pay taxes for commensurate benefits. I don't really feel like I get that in CA. It's like an extremely inefficient engine.

Ironically there is one way in which the tax benefits are ABSURDLY generous - unemployment. When I saw how much that returned I was staggered. Perhaps I'm in an income sweet spot, but when I calculated it, it was far more assistance than I would have expected from a non-French government.

I'm aware of course that state tax sits on top of Federal tax, but when you factor into the equation what responsibilities are Federal and not state, it looks astonishingly poorly distributed.

I'm not really sure how the high cost of living is anything other than a milestone around the area's neck. I've lived in v-high COL areas, but that has always gone hand in hand with extreme density, which could easily be viewed at as a simple tax for the provision of world-class services. Somehow I'm out here in suburbia paying Megacity rates.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#438

Post by gangstead » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

lukeramsden wrote: post #410

giantg2 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I totally agree and I think property taxes are way more fair and equitable for a society than income taxes." Until you retire and no longer can pay the tax and are kicked out of your home. Logically, it makes more sense to tax people who are actually making money (income and capital gains) since that means they actually have money. Taxing people on a fundamental need (shelter) could potentially increase homelessness…

Couldn't you give property tax breaks to retirees, or to people temporarily out of work?

Seniors do get a slight property tax discount here in Texas. Still I suppose it does encourage people to downsize when they are empty nesters and no longer need to house a big family. In California you get the opposite problem where people can't afford to move as their needs change since their property tax would no longer be kept low.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#439

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

bcheung wrote: post #137

klipt wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most economists agree that a land value tax is economically the best kind of tax. Imagine property tax is 0. Why would anyone ever sell? All the land would effectively be owned by hereditary feudal lords. Texas has higher property taxes than California but more affordable housing. Makes you think.

Funny enough, I actually agree with this, at least from an economics perspective. I'd much rather get rid of the income tax and have higher property taxes. That seems much more efficient to me.

If your goal is to have wealthier/higher income people pay proportionally more taxes than poorer/lower income people, i.e. reduce the wealth/income gap in society, then you want both income and property (specifically land value) tax.

Re: Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving for Texas

#440

Post by selectodude » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

francisofascii wrote: post #385

almost_usual wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and Cook County has a property tax rate that is nearly 2x San Francisco county.

Which is a good thing. Higher property taxes leads to lower, more realistic real estate prices for new buyers. See Prop 13.

The issue with Chicagoland isn't the property taxes currently, it's the uncertainty on the guaranteed raises that will occur. Sure, you can buy a $650,000 house in the city and pay $13k/yr in property tax, but that might go up to $20k/yr at which point you're underwater on your mortgage and spending an extra $800/mo.

I have the money to buy and the day the city files for bankruptcy and restructures their pensions is the day I purchase. But not a second sooner.