Empire of Fantasy
aeon.co
Empire of Fantasy
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Re: Empire of Fantasy
#2I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious!
Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#3I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
Can you share more info on how they invalidated the idea that the Haradrim and Calormenes are racist?
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#4I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#5I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
And Harry potter a medieval world remind me again where the steam train is in Malory :-)
And Tolkien's successful campaign to put old English at the heat of English studies is well known by this point if you read any biography of Tolkien.
True Tolkien and Lewis where "of their time" but they are no Lovecraft
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#6I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
Saying that some people with dark skin are bad is not being racist.
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
Saying that some people with dark skin are bad is not being racist.
That’s not at all what I am saying, you are straw-manning.
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#8I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
> how the British thought
> crystallized world views that were prevalent
They were prevalent because they were correct. It has nothing to do with race. By the standards of history, nothing between two civilizations is as well documented as the protracted conflict (14 centuries) between the West and Islam [0]. You might argue that this perspective is biased, and you may be correct, but even critics of that perspective acknowledge that the long chain of historical events and accounts of historical events are undeniable, regardless of what you consider to be their cause.
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37938325-sword-and-scimi...
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#9I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
I always thought that if you took the coastline of Turkey and created a mountain range out of it, you would have a basic representation of Mordor. Then took Gondor mainly based around the city of Minas Tirith, Rohan based mainly around Edoras etc. and you would have the Greek City states. Minas Ithil would be Troy or other overrun ex colonies of the early Greeks. And then you have the Haradrim et al and they look a lot like the Persian empire.
There are many other aspects as well such as the last stand at the Battle of the Black Gate being a lot like the Battle of Marathon.
So to me the Lord of the Rings in some parts often sounds like the defense against the Persian Empire (there are various aspects that don't fit of course), so to only see it through the myopic eyes of Identity politics is I agree lazy.
Re: Empire of Fantasy
#10I thought I had read a lot about Tolkien and Lewis but I have never before read the theory that they consciously conspired together to inculcate generations of writers to rebuild English literature around medieval fantasy. Ingenious! Dismissing the Haradrim and Calormenes as racist archetypes is lazy, though. Tolkien and Lewis went out of their way to invalidate that interpretation.
How is it not a racist archetype? Good guys = white people from the north with British features and bad guys = dark people from the South with Middle Eastern features is in fact how the British thought of the world for hundreds of years... Tolkien and Lewis writings simply crystallized world views that were prevalent.
There are no people on this planet that would ever portray themselves as the "bad guy" in their stories. You are always the good guy in your story and the 'others' are the bad. This is human nature not an exclusively white thing.