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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#191

Post by davidhollander »

ellyagg wrote: post #181
zedshaw wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

It's so frustrating and terrible to see the situation in NK trivialized by comparing the US's prison systems unfavorably to it. No initiative, no activism, no outcry can be raised because its wind is immediately sucked out by foolish people screaming moral equivalence. How do you think refugees from these gulags would feel to hear you compare the average US prison inmate's experience to their own? Do you acknowledge…

> But this is why NK gets to go merrily about its way starving and torturing its citizens.

No it's not. There are 3 foreign policy "sticks" that could be used to end this situation:

1. Invasion

2. Sanctions

3. Shaming

Aggregation of frustration is not one of them.

They have differing requirements in order to be effective:

1. Requires a weak enemy military and existent domestic political opposition to the regime. Internal dissonance exists and your forces are not over-leveraged on other fronts.

2. Requires the entity to already be integrated in the global economy. There is something real you can withhold that will not cause additional mass starvation.

3. Requires high social proof. Those doing the shaming can easily deflect accusations of hypocrisy to rapidly build a global and regional (Chinese) consensus.

Notice that no conditions necessary for 1 or 2 are present. This leaves 3 as one of the most obvious routes to discuss. As the US currently has the world's largest population of prisoners, it makes it hard for the USA to end the prisoner problem in North Korea as effectively as it could. Discourse will necessarily gravitate towards how the US can improve its social proof by striving for exemplary domestic policies. It's not a matter of "moral equivalence", but of being open to moral improvement when others remind us of our faults. Unless we can think of a new kind of stick, this may remain the best way to help those in North Korea.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#192

Post by marshray »

amackera wrote: post #90
ck2 wrote: post #4

If they still made the sears catalog I'd suggest the key to starting a peoples' revolt in North Korea would be to airdrop hundreds of thousands of catalogs across the country. Even without understanding the language, just looking at all the goods would make people start wondering why they are being made to suffer so.

How about just dropping food?

Because the regime would simply drop poisoned food in the same packages.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#193

Post by marshray »

metatronscube wrote: post #102

Well America, are you going to spread "Freedom and Democracy" there? It sure needs it.

We did, but only got as far as what is today known as South Korea before being blocked by China and USSR. A lot of US soldiers died in that effort.

Perhaps you should check history before being sarcastic next time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#194

Post by mc32 »

zedshaw wrote: post #131
jacoblyles wrote: post #97

It's interesting to see reddit's America-hatred spread here. We can't condemn atrocities anywhere in the world without first holding America up as a paragon of all that is evil. The failure to recognize the good in America, indeed the many ways in which it still leads the world, and see the difference between a free country with perhaps too-strict sentencing guidelines and one which enslaves and kills its people for…

Having actually worked for the penal system collecting and analyzing statistics on prisoner abuses and policy enforcement, I can easily tell you that you are wrong (assuming your confusing deconstructionist prose means what I think it means). In general, Europe has some of the best prisons, and some of the worst prisons. France, Italy, Turkey, and Russia have horrendous prisons where in many cases prisoners don't sur…

>In Asia only Japan has decent well run prisons, but their prisons are harsh while still having a high success rate.

just to clarify for others. The high conviction success rate in japan has to do with at least two things:

1. Only cases which have high chances of success are pursued (so you get cases where "people fell down a staircase".

2. Detainees have little expectation of talking to an attorney any time soon. Confessions, co-erced or otherwise, are sought after with vigor by the police. From Wikipedia "Confessions are often obtained after long periods of questioning by police. This can, at times, take weeks or months during which time the suspect is in detention and can be prevented from contacting a lawyer or family.[2] Thus, since the suspect is put through prolonged strain, stress and pressure, the reliability of such confessions can be questioned. To Japanese citizens and police, however, the arrest itself already creates the presumption of guilt which needs only to be verified via a confession.[2] The interrogation reports prepared by police and prosecutors and submitted to the trial courts often constitute the central evidence considered when weighing the guilt or innocence of the suspect.[3]"

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#195

Post by thematt »

davidhollander wrote: post #191
ellyagg wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so frustrating and terrible to see the situation in NK trivialized by comparing the US's prison systems unfavorably to it. No initiative, no activism, no outcry can be raised because its wind is immediately sucked out by foolish people screaming moral equivalence. How do you think refugees from these gulags would feel to hear you compare the average US prison inmate's experience to their own? Do you acknowledge…

> But this is why NK gets to go merrily about its way starving and torturing its citizens. No it's not. There are 3 foreign policy "sticks" that could be used to end this situation: 1. Invasion 2. Sanctions 3. Shaming Aggregation of frustration is not one of them. They have differing requirements in order to be effective : 1. Requires a weak enemy military and existent domestic political opposition to the regime. Int…

Regarding #2) The North Korean regime continues it's existence and behavior in large part because of the assistance they receive from China. So while we may not be able to sanction NK directly in the world economy, we can very much influence them by proxy through our foreign policy with China.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#198

Post by jules »

chillax wrote: post #145
michael_dorfman wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My money's on Scandinavia.

This is one started up last year in Norway: Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0…

Your comment below has been killed, either by a moderator or because it was downvoted. Because of how the current system works, it might be the case that every subsequent comment you post gets killed automatically. You can't see this, but to people who don't have the "showdead" option on, your comments will be invisible. If this is the case I hope you create a new account, instead of becoming another innocent victim of a broken system.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#199

Post by uuilly »

zinkem wrote: post #189
uuilly wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a concentration camp is intentional. Allowing a drug war to proliferate is neglect. Intent matters in criminal sentencing and it matters here.

What do you call it when the CIA participates in the drug trafficking, is that acting with neglect or intent?

Then the question becomes:

Would the drug problem exist without the CIA?

a) Yes.

b) Yes but slightly less bad.

c) No.

'c' is unreasonable 'a' and 'b' are reasonable answers.

Now:

Would the concentration camps exist with or without the North Korean Government's help?

'c' is the only reasonable answer.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#200

Post by zinkem »

uuilly wrote: post #199
zinkem wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you call it when the CIA participates in the drug trafficking, is that acting with neglect or intent?

Then the question becomes: Would the drug problem exist without the CIA? a) Yes. b) Yes but slightly less bad. c) No. 'c' is unreasonable 'a' and 'b' are reasonable answers. Now: Would the concentration camps exist with or without the North Korean Government's help? 'c' is the only reasonable answer.

Oh OK. So just as long as the problem would exist without us, we aren't responsible for our actions?

Well governments have been putting people in concentration camps long before North Korea decided to do it.

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