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Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

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201–210 of 314 posts

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#201

I expect people on HN to have already figured out the obvious: It takes much less energy to heat the area under your clothes, using existing heat, than to heat a room or building with artificially generated heat. Your body is 37 deg C. Wearing low-insulation clothing and letting that heat float away, and then heating the entire room or building to warm you up again, is absurd if you understand basic physics and think…

> Heating a building when you aren't there is silly. Is this true? I've thought about it for a while but can't quite wrap my head around an answer that feels obviously correct. It takes a lot of energy to raise the temperature of a house - more than to maintain a given temperature. Allowing for changing temperatures during the day, and concrete slabs and walls and the ground as heat stores, is it always the case that…

> It takes a lot of energy to raise the temperature of a house - more than to maintain a given temperature

is this true? the house is constantly bleeding off its heat at a rate proportional to the temperature difference between interior and exterior. it should always cost more energy to maintain the higher temperature gradient than to just let the heat bleed off (which it was always going to do) and add in more heat once the building is occupied.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#202
Slogans work better when there are one or two parts, but this is unfortunately oversimplified and recent building patterns have made this much worse.

The first thing you should dress is the building, because it takes the longest.

We have forgotten that passive cooling and heating from the environment are your first line of defense. We screw this up, and building codes now allow such small boundaries between houses that we can’t retroactively fix it on new construction.

This was really driven home for me recently when I explained to my partner that I wanted to rip out the arborvitae the previous owners installed before they got too big for me to dig up.

I wanted a tall, narrow deciduous tree for the south side of our house, to reduce solar gain in the summer, but to let light hit the house in the winter. She paused and said nobody had ever explained that to her before, which shocked me given how long we’ve lived together.

We need to use vegetation to “eat” the sun and wind during the times of year when we want neither, then adjust our houses within that protective shell we have created. But we have forgotten how to do this, if in fact we ever knew.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#203
I'm German, studied in Auckland (NZ), worked in Sydney and Melbourne and am now living in Sweden. The coldest I've ever felt is Auckland and Sydney (probably Sydney slightly colder). Sydney houses are so poorly insulated, there's cm-wide gaps under some doors and windows and the only heaters are typically a small plugin resistive heater. Auckland was typically a bit better, except that the heaters were indoor gas heaters with a LPG bottle (welcome to dampness and condensation on all windows).

During the day in Sydney winter it is often 18-22 degrees, so you can walk around in t-shirt quite comfortably, but as soon as the sun goes down it drops down to 8-12 and it's as cold inside as outside. Try to work on a computer when it's 12 degrees in your room (or maybe 15 if you have your electric heater on full blast).

Melbourne gets much colder and insulation is only marginally better. However, apartments/houses typically have some sort of proper heating (heat-pump or centralised gas heater). You still largely heat the outside though (one of our houses was so badly insulated, that when it was windstill the house could be easily heated to ~20 deg even with ~1 deg outside, when windy that indoor temperature dropped to >10.

Now in Sweden, I can easily sit in t-shirt and be comfortable. In fact my office can be heated just using my moderate desktop PC (~450 W power supply), because you don't loose the heat to the outside immediately.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#204
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to laugh at your comment about Scotland because people in Maine do the same thing. Heat is either blasting or turned off. Very poor insulation.

We had a problem with this in older Chicago apartments, usually 2 flats and quads. These buildings usually had radiator heat fired by a common boiler in the basement and city mandated turn-on dates and minimum daily/nightly temperatures. In theory each radiator has a regulator valve that allows you to moderate the amount of steam flowing through it. In reality these valves are all painted over/corroded/never worked i…

I spent a winter in Moscow many moons ago, they had 2 sets of windows creating with a significant corridor in between them. Where I was, heating was centrally controlled by the city so if it got hot, open the first window. Still hot? Open the second for extra fresh air. Quite a good system I thought and awfully romantic for me: watching the snow fall through open windows with the heating on full blast.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#205

From the comments: > Sorry, I am not buying it. Not because you haven't done good work on the article: you have. Also not because N.American homes are overheated, and the residents under-dressed: they are. I do not buy it because the Japanese live the way you suggest in the winter, and it is miserable I have a mother in Scotland and I have a mother-in-law in Canada. Worst it ever gets near my mother seems to be -5C,…

When I moved to the UK and I was looking for a property to rent I was surprised to read advertisements bragging about "double glazing". I don't really remember seeing single glazing in my home country (even pre-second-word-war had double, just not two pieces of glass in a single window frame, but two separately openable single glazed windows). But it doesn't get that cold (outside) in winter in the UK, while the strongest winter i remember was getting down to -30 degrees celsius. However houses are definitely cooler inside in winter in the UK.

Nowadays there are increased requirements for thermal insulation in new houses and many new buildings where I come from have triple glazed windows, some people get recuperation (warm air having house warms up newly coming air) and some even heat pumps (winters got milder recently, so even air source heat pumps are sufficient most of the years)

Talking about Canada, when I was an exchange student in Halifax, New Scotia, one day when the snow fell (not even a particularly big amount in my opinion) the uni cancelled the classes; we were some of not many people who arrived to the uni building so we went sledging on a small hill nearby. It was the only time in my life that school/uni was cancelled due to weather! So Halifax didn't live up to the stereotype and my expectations about Canada, but maybe it's because it's not really a hardcore part of the country :)

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#206
post #5

Study that measured cold resistance among Finnish population found out that city dwellers in the south (Helsinki) had better cold resistance than people living in the north (Lappi). People in the cities wear thin city clothes even during winters, and freeze their ass off, while people living in much colder rural regions dress sensibly and stay warm.

This lines up with my experience - my Russian immigrant girlfriend has very little tolerance for cold, which surprised me considering how low temperatures get in Moscow. She explained that bundling up during the winter is taken so seriously that babies and young children wear thick insulating hats pretty much 24/7 during every non summer month. The idea that being cold causes colds (infections generally) is taken for granted by Russians. Oddly, taking a dip in ice cold water is considered good for your health.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#207

I expect people on HN to have already figured out the obvious: It takes much less energy to heat the area under your clothes, using existing heat, than to heat a room or building with artificially generated heat. Your body is 37 deg C. Wearing low-insulation clothing and letting that heat float away, and then heating the entire room or building to warm you up again, is absurd if you understand basic physics and think…

> Heating a building when you aren't there is silly. Is this true? I've thought about it for a while but can't quite wrap my head around an answer that feels obviously correct. It takes a lot of energy to raise the temperature of a house - more than to maintain a given temperature. Allowing for changing temperatures during the day, and concrete slabs and walls and the ground as heat stores, is it always the case that…

Yes, because when the inside of the house is close to outside temperature the temperature difference is lower (obvious). Heat loss depends on temperature differential so there will be less energy lose.

The real question you should ask isn't is it true - it is. The real question is it significant enough to worry about. If you are going to be gone for several days it is.

If you are only talking about a part of a day though things are different, and get complex.

If you heat with electric (including heat pumps!), keeping the house a consistent temperature makes you use an even amount of heat all day, and so your house can be better supplied by renewable energy. If many people turn the heat up when (or just before) they get home at 5pm - the renewable power available isn't enough and the power company will have to turn on fossil fuel plants to make up the difference. Thus you might use more energy but use a better type of energy by keeping the house warm.

For many houses solar heating (from windows) is nearly enough to keep the house warm all day even on the coldest days, so it doesn't matter as the heating system isn't working anyway.

Note that the previous two paragraphs contradict each other. I don't know how to work that out (for cooling it is a big deal), so you will need to ask questions - be prepared for different answers at different times.

If your house is well insulated you shouldn't see much a change in temperature indoors, and as such there is only a tiny amount of energy save with setbacks. So why not just enjoy a comfortable temperature for the rare exceptions to your schedule? If your house is not well insulated, fixing that should be your priority.

There are probably other factors I can't think of.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#208
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heating a building when you aren't there is silly. [0] If I don’t heat my home when I’m not there in the winter, the water supply lines will freeze and burst causing thousands or tens of thousands in damage. I think I’ll heat my home when I’m not there, thanks.

I'm pretty sure the OC means "don't heat your home to a comfortable habitation level when you aren't there." Obviously turning the heat off entirely with a risk of pipes breaking is a bad idea. However, setting your thermostat to 50ºF is sufficient for that.

If you live in a climate where pipes are a factor in your heat decision, then you should have enough insulation that the difference in energy isn't all that much.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#209
post #97

Being able to be comfortable in our homes while being minimally clothed in the winter is one of those "luxuries" of the fossil fuel age that we take for granted. The constellation of technologies needed to achieve this efficiently (with far less fossil fuels) and healthily (with healthy internal air quality) exists: heat pumps, heat-recovery-ventilators, airtight but vapor permeable house sealing materials - the stan…

I think you forget how people make choices. One of the big issues is that if people are given the choice between an extra 3rd or 4th bathroom (that they use twice a year) and good insulation, most people will choose the 4th bathroom. That is because the bathrooms are considered status symbols while insulation is not. Now the rational thing to do when building a house, is to choose the most energy efficient solution over any other options (e.g. a better kitchen), because more energy efficiency will allow you to afford the other upgrades sooner. However, few people make their choices like that.

Re: Insulation: First the body, then the home (2011)

#210
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No thank you. I grew up in a house with a dad who fully bought into the "wear a sweater" philosophy. He'd make us go around all winter wearing two sweaters, a hat, and shoes indoors, and I still froze. My nose ran constantly and my hands got so cold I couldn't use my computer. Now I'm an adult and I've learned that the extra cost to heat my condo to 23 degrees all winter is basically the same as my Netflix subscripti…

OK, you win, you can't figure it out. :)

Rude
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