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Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

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Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#201
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average cost of acre of farm land in US: $3160 Average cost of a cheap warehouse in US (this is being generous as the cost is likely far higher for a vertical farm) $20 square ft [1] Thus, Land/building cost standard farming method: $3160 per acre[2] Land/building cost of equivalent vertical farm: $871200 per acre Which is 275x higher. Once again, using warehouse costs is being generous to vertical farms. It's likely…

You're ignoring the fact that vertical farms have layers. In this article, they are growing 14 layers, so to match the output of one acre of farmland requires 1/14 of an acre of building, if all else is the same. Also, vertical farms can produce 365 days a year, which conventional farms can not. Other factors such as precise control of climate, nutrients, and pests will also increase the output of vertical farms. I t…

> You're ignoring the fact that vertical farms have layers. In this article, they are growing 14 layers, so to match the output of one acre of farmland requires 1/14 of an acre of building, if all else is the same.

I also used 20 per sq foot which is an gross underestimation for actual cost per square foot of a vertical farm to compensate for this. I wouldn't be surprised if each "layer" itself has a per square foot cost that is a significant fraction of the equivalent cost of a farmland sq foot.

> Also, vertical farms can produce 365 days a year, which conventional farms can not.

Vegetables are grown in California 7-8 months a year. So there is room here for an advantage to vertical farms, but is it really a significant advantage? Most CA growers own or lease land in AZ and CA and flip flop between the two as the season dictates, so there is there no real advantage here in terms of availability and as I already outlined the cost is far below a vertical farm so if you can't give vertical farm a price or available advantage what advantage do they have?

And to answer my own previous question, for all the "shop local" trends out there, transportation costs are minimal, which is why you can buy produce from even another country at cut-rate prices, so these are probably not a big factor. I would guess the most significant promise of vertical is probably less inputs. Inputs traditionally cost more than land in farming (I actually do know about this as I work for an AG company and have been in the precision Ag industry for 10 years). However, inputs don't cost (200x/150x/100x/50x/whatever number you want to go with for vertical farm land cost multiplier) more than land cost. I guess the argument can be made that I just put everything in cost terms and not in some sort of ecological benefit terms but that is just the world we live in, solar didn't blow up because people started to care, it blew up because it became economically viable.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#202

Good. Having the cities being food independent will be huge in putting the farmers in their place.

Not really. 91M acres of corn is grown in the US annually. I don't see that being put indoors. It would be best to grow high calorie and protein rich food in indoor farms. I could imagine cell cultured meat or insect farms really disrupt farming. From a cost standpoint, vertical plant farms will have enormous difficulty competing with any outdoor farms.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salads are economic to produce because they have no calories. Calories = Light (energy) + Fertiliser. Efficiency of an LED is like 40%, and Photosynthesis efficiency is like 2%. In other words calories are expensive and ineffieicent to produce through artificial lighting, no amount of 'startuping' will change that. Also nothing here is new, we've had greenhouses, artificial lighting, hydroponics, aquaponics, aeroponi…

There are some things that were not available 50 years ago. Better robots, better accumulators, flying drones, image recognition, AI able to make complex decisions. Those things might reduce need in humans and humans are not cheap.

A flat farm, everything else being equal, will take less humans. There's nothing about being indoors and vertical that is a magical advantage for mechanization. There's also a lot more mechanization necessary in dealing with vertical farms. All of a sudden you have to transport soil, fertilizer, and harverst vertically in addition to horizontally.

Already, wheat fields can be tilled and harvested by autonomous combines. Direct human labor is basically down to picking fruits and vegetables. Most of the time, it's going to be cheaper growing something outside, in the sun and dirt that's already there.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#204
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

Counterintuitively, I have previously been told that you can actually grow more than one square meter of plants with one square meter of solar panels. The reason for this is that LED lighting can be designed to produce exactly the frequencies plants actually absorb, and distributed optimally through the day. Current solar technology isn't sufficient to make that cheaper than regular farming for staple crops, but I ca…

Exactly. One square meter of solar panels can provide enough energy for several meters of plants.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#205
post #8
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

Also why bother with all that waste just to produce something that has basically zero nutritional value?

Because lettuces and other greens are grown regardless. Is your argument that no one should grow those plants at all?

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#206
post #101

Disclaimer: I've grown tomatoes, strawberries and weed indoors with artificial lighting. As long as there is no shocking event like global drought or famine I do not think vertical farming or indoor farming will be a norm anytime soon as it takes massive, massive amount of energy/capital. That being said, the moment we figure out using fusion energy, conventional farming will most probably vanish. Also R&D on agricul…

Yep, it's all about cost of energy. The solar farm that powers a vertical farm will always take up more space than the vertical farm saves. We have a nice podcast episode about this, maybe this interests you: https://www.predictions-podcast.com/2020/03/29/vertical-farm...

I can't listen to your podcast right now, but solar panels are more efficient than photosynthesis, and you can produce the wavelength of light needed for plants by LEDs using a fraction of that power, so what makes you say that the solar farm that powers a vertical farm will always take up more space than the vertical farm saves?

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#207
Also see previous recent discussion of indoor/vertical farming (2017) - (1) and (2).

As discussed on that thread, vertical/indoor farming is great for leafy greens (mainly water but but not much other nutrients or carbon), but much harder for other plants.

See this video [3] - "Why Vertical Farming Won't Save the Planet: Bruce Bugbee, Utah State University Department of Plants, Soils and Climate, has studied plant growth in controlled environments for most of his career. Here he presents the results of his analysis of the environmental effects of Vertical Farming/Indoor Agriculture (September 2015)".

A copy of the slides can be downloaded here (the link shown on the youtube page is dead - correct link[4]).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809841 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14347288 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAKc9gpGjw [4] https://cpl.usu.edu/htm/research/publication=15787

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#208
post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

> Instead of growing cabbage in prime real estate in Copenhagen, why don't we invest in Africa, give them some huge machines and then buy their produce?

Perhaps because the Danes rather be self-sufficient with respect to food, than depend on the development and continued cooperation of a country in Africa?

I personally have a deep love for the idea of mechanizing agriculture in a fully sustainable way to the point you could drop a few pods anywhere and provide healthy, nutritious and free food for any population, for free, forever. What a gift for our children that would be.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#209

Also see previous recent discussion of indoor/vertical farming (2017) - (1) and (2). As discussed on that thread, vertical/indoor farming is great for leafy greens (mainly water but but not much other nutrients or carbon), but much harder for other plants. See this video [3] - "Why Vertical Farming Won't Save the Planet: Bruce Bugbee, Utah State University Department of Plants, Soils and Climate, has studied plant gr…

What are some high-calorie/nutritional value plants that work well in vertical farming? Maybe if those were grown cheaply enough people would adapt their recipes to incorporate them.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#210
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it's all about cost of energy. The solar farm that powers a vertical farm will always take up more space than the vertical farm saves. We have a nice podcast episode about this, maybe this interests you: https://www.predictions-podcast.com/2020/03/29/vertical-farm...

I can't listen to your podcast right now, but solar panels are more efficient than photosynthesis, and you can produce the wavelength of light needed for plants by LEDs using a fraction of that power, so what makes you say that the solar farm that powers a vertical farm will always take up more space than the vertical farm saves?

You're right, I was generalising a bit in my above comment. The wavelength - focusing argument actually comes up in the podcast and we agree it might possibly offer a way out of the energy trap.

PS: Feel free to subscribe now to listen later ;)

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