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Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

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Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#51

Post by bostonpete »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #18
josefresco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.

Not arguing whether people should be locked up or not for certain crimes - there is obviously an issue with that - but when it comes down to numbers - are we really leading the world in that area: North Koran Population: 23,906,070 Estimated "Prisoners": 200,000 Percentage in Custody: 0.83% United States Population: 307,006,550 Estimated Prisoners: 2,292,133 Percentage in Custody: 0.74% (Both numbers for US populatio…

My understanding is that North Koreans, by and large, have a very low quality of life, have limited rights, and are not free to leave. By that description, I'd have to say their percentage of prisoners is closer to 100%.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#52

Post by jhamburger »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #37
Wickk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A conversation about our prison system is irrelevant. We're not locking people up in mass and forcing them to live in death camps. Our prison system is far from perfect but it doesn't compare to what these people are going through.

As I see it, the difference is only in degree. In both cases, people are being denied their freedom and taken away from their families, for engaging in activities that hurt no one, not even themselves. It's certainly true that American prisons are better . But given the OP's definition: "enduring starvation, torture, and rape while performing hard labor", we do hit a couple of checkboxes. My understanding is that pri…

In this case the degree is fairly important though. If we ignore degree completely we have most of the liberal democracies in the world lumped in with NK, Libya and Zimbabwe. Obviously lines must be drawn.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#53

Post by roel_v »

rorrr wrote: post #38

US prison population: 2.2 million http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_...

What's your point? That US prisoners and their extended families are being starved, raped and tortured for being critical of a government official, or questioning the official propaganda? Look, you may not agree with US drug policy, I know I don't (I'm not an American), but comparing what is happening in North Korea to what happens in Western prisons (apart from an isolated incident here or there) is, to put it mildly, disingenuous.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#55

Post by nooneelse »

ck2 wrote: post #4

If they still made the sears catalog I'd suggest the key to starting a peoples' revolt in North Korea would be to airdrop hundreds of thousands of catalogs across the country. Even without understanding the language, just looking at all the goods would make people start wondering why they are being made to suffer so.

Sometimes I like to indulge a similar fantasy. Only in mine it would be an airdrop of hundreds of thousands of small, hand-crank powered, mesh and satellite enabled, fully encrypt-able communication devices. Upon start-up, the helpful cartoon would explain something like... "you don't have to use this to talk to the outside countries you have been taught to distrust (though we hope this gift helps you see us in a better light), but you can use these to talk to each other privately (without your government knowing it is you doing the talking). Also, if you have relatives outside of North Korea, they are very likely waiting to talk with you in a chat-room or forum. What's a chat-room? Well, glad you asked..."

Yeah, naïve fantasy. But except for very slow strategies (like supporting the thin strands of journalism/information flow inside the country), I can't think of much else that can be done that doesn't include the look of military adventurism and the big risk of needing to rebuild one and a half countries. Even air dropping food directly to towns without the propaganda would risk Seoul.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#56

Post by kkleiner »

bigwally wrote: post #39
ceejayoz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more that one camp.

If you watched the video they said it was all in 2 valleys. 200,000 in those two valleys? Impossible.

Sadly, I fear it is possible if you are squeezing 50 of them into a room designed for 5 people and feeding them tiny portions of corn meal each day.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#57

Post by raganwald »

josefresco wrote: post #13
yequalsx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see your point. Does the number of U.S. prisoners diminish the vileness of what goes on in North Korea? Are you saying/suggesting that the numbers of prisoners in the U.S. are so great that other countries are beyond criticism? That it's hypocritical for Americans or the American government to be shocked by the situation in North Korea? Can you clarify?

I'll answer for him, it's your last suggestion It's hypocritical for someone in the US to criticize other nations about their prison systems when we're leading the world in locking people up for crazy shit. That's not to say we can't have an opinion, just not a holier-than-thou attitude about it.

It may sound hypocritical for an American to oppose concentration camps in North Korea based on America's prison-happy justice system, but please keep two things in mind:

1. It is only hypocritical for the speaker if he supports America's prison-happy justice system. If he opposes it, or has misgivings, or is undecided, it is not hypocritical to oppose North Korea.

2. Even if it is hypocrisy, that doesn't diminish his words in any way, just your personal opinion of him. If his criticism is invalid, it can be disputed directly. If his criticism is valid, he could be as flawed and terrible a human being as we can imagine and his criticism would still be valid.

#2 is the key point. Arguing that his words are hypocritical is a kind of Ad Hominem Abuse, something generally discouraged on HN as a kind of intellectual laziness, a rhetorical appeal to emotion rather than an analysis of the argument being debated.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#58

Post by Jun8 »

ck2 wrote: post #4

If they still made the sears catalog I'd suggest the key to starting a peoples' revolt in North Korea would be to airdrop hundreds of thousands of catalogs across the country. Even without understanding the language, just looking at all the goods would make people start wondering why they are being made to suffer so.

Airlifting catalogs may be impractical but the gist of your idea is so true! One big factor in USSR's fall, I think, was people's knowledge of the superiority and availability of goods available in the West.

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#59

Post by muhfuhkuh »

abbasmehdi wrote: post #44
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #9

"I can admire China’s growth in infrastructure and technology, it’s pursuit to compete on a global scale, but what good is all that growth if it allows these crimes to go on next door?" I admire America's prominence in infrastructure and technology, it's continuing domination on a global scale, but what good is all that power when over 40,000 people and rising are murdered because of a drug war for which they are com…

Come on muhfuhkuha, you're taking this out of context. The author is saying that China is an accomplice in crimes committed by NK because it expels refugees who face imminent threat in NK, thus making China an accomplice. China cannot push escapees back into shark waters and say "I am not the shark", I'd say "Yes China, but you kind of fed this person to the shark." The US has a very generous amnesty and refugee prog…

"The US has a very generous amnesty and refugee program"

... unless you're a little boy from communist Cuba who wanted to live free in America but was repatriated at gunpoint in the middle of the night[1].

[1]http://www.nndb.com/people/574/000025499/

Re: Satellite Images of North Korea Prison Camps Find 200,000 Living as Slaves

#60

Post by yequalsx »

aw3c2 wrote: post #31
yequalsx wrote: post #10

What I can't understand is how people can visit North Korea and not feel disgusted by giving support for that regime. I believe North Korea is facing another famine this year. Given the conditions in North Korea and the apparent iron grip its regime has on power is it better not to provide food aid? I can't decide for myself if it's better, for the long term, to let the nation starve and not help the people out or to…

And so is our lifestyle. We rely on the exploitation of the rest of the world but close our eyes and pretend everything is fine. After all, the bad things happen in far-far-away to people of different races and cultures.

I think it's fair to bring up exploitation of resources, and labor conditions in other countries so that rich countries can live at a higher standard of living. But there is a difference from visiting an exploited country to visiting a country whose regime exploits its own people. Would you agree with this?
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