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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#891

Post by dragonwriter »

EricE wrote: post #890
hackyhacky wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kinds of "both-sides-ism" that gives centrists a bad reputation. You're basically saying: "everyone uses media to achieve their goals, therefore all sides are equally bad." No. Using misinformation to intentionally disrupt a democratic election is demonstrably dangerous to society. Say what you will about the "establishment," but traditional media still bear some semblance of the truth. Now we're seeing t…

"traditional media still bear some semblance of the truth." Seriously? Four years of "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA" and it turns out that the same people knew before they started peddling that narrative that it was (and still is) at its core a smear campaign cooked up by the Clintons. Hunter Biden - completely buried before the election, now all of the sudden that the election is over the media is "breaking" this important s…

> Hunter Biden - completely buried before the election, now all of the sudden that the election is over the media is "breaking" this important story?

The allegations were well covered before the election. The new story that they are covering now is the announcement by DoJ of the ongoing investigation. The media didn't suppress that before the election, Bill Barr did, doing a surprising simulation (given his past conduct) of professionalism in observing historical Justice norms around elections on that point.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#892

Post by EricE »

skyzyx wrote: post #855
My7thAccount wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One leaves control of speech up to the individual speaker while the other leaves it in the hands of an Oligarchy of people who think they are know better than everyone else because they have more money. There's a degree of arrogance behind the thinking, "I'm smart enough to discern fact from fiction but those less intelligent than I must need my help or else they might believe a falsehood"

You’re missing a key point — journalistic integrity. It’s something that can be measured and validated. Second is experience in discerning fact from fiction — not everybody has it. And example is that guy who believed that the earth was flat, so he jury rigged a rocket and shot himself straight up in the air. He then died from his injuries. Elementary school mathematics taught us that he wasn’t going to be successful…

"And finally, the word “censorship”. This is an accusatory word used by people who think it relates to their non-existent “freedom of speech”. The first amendment applies to the agreement between the US government and its citizens. "

The US Constitution restricts the Government from infringing on rights we, as citizens, already have.

The Constitution does NOT grant us rights. The whole freaking point of our revolution vs., say the French Revolution, is the PEOPLE have the rights and government is restricted - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

YouTube's unequal and arbitrary application of rules is EDITORIAL CONTROL. As such they fall FAR more on the side of a publisher than platform and that's the part of 230 that needs SERIOUS overhaul.

Then again maybe not. Their latest antics have pushed even more people off onto other platforms; and ultimately that will be the best correction. De-aggregation is the best antidote.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#893

Post by hackyhacky »

lliamander wrote: post #869
hackyhacky wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are definitely separable, based on intent. The marketplace of ideas works only insofar as everyone involved operates with good faith. Weaponized misinformation is the opposite of that: expressing what appears to be an opinion, but is actually a manipulation tactic. Look in particular for arguments that appeal to emotion (especially anger), nationalism, and in-group/out-group. The fascists understood, and still u…

> They are definitely separable, based on intent. That is frankly naive. Many earnest people repeat dangerous lies, and wicked people are more that willing to use the truth, especially if it is an uncomfortable truth that is important but overlooked by polite society. > If you can't tell the difference between a genuine opinion and a misinformation tactic, you are ill prepared to participate in today's media environm…

> That is frankly naive. Many earnest people repeat dangerous lies, and wicked people are more that willing to use the truth, especially if it is an uncomfortable truth that is important but overlooked by polite society.

Correct. That's why I said the difference is intent. You have not contradicted that.

> On the contrary, I can do a much better job at the scale I operate at than YouTube can do at the scale it operates at.

Congratulations. I'm not concerned with weaponized disinformation in your social circle.

> Furthermore, I take the very liberal view that I have both the right and the responsibility to make up my own mind about others' speech. I hold in low regard those who try to take that from me.

Good for you. If everyone were as intelligent and enlightened as you are, then the world would operate a lot more smoothly.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#894

Post by lambdatronics »

somehnrdr14726 wrote: post #792

A lot of discussion about whether YouTube censorship is valid or not, carries an implicit assumption that the marketplace of ideas is up to the task of sorting fact from fiction. It isn't, at least not right now, because of technologies like YouTube's recommendation engine. When everyone thinks that virality is a signal of truthiness, an algorithm which amplifies outrage to generate virality undermines the marketplac…

>When everyone thinks that virality is a signal of truthiness, an algorithm which amplifies outrage to generate virality undermines the marketplace of ideas.

Nailed it!

>YouTube isn't going to address the source of the problem because they would go out of business

In a way, we (the people) are getting exactly what we asked for... "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#895

Post by lambdatronics »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #258
travisoneill1 wrote: post #193

Thank god for all of the people at Youtube working on censoring misinformation. They are so much smarter than me and obviously better than me at figuring out what is true and what isn't! And isn't it great that they always act selflessly in favor of the truth and never in the narrow interest of Google? I don't know what I would do if I didn't have them there to protect me from the dangerous misinformation. I am so he…

I'll take the bait in the spirit of casual friday night internet debating and recognizing your tone as purely sarcastic. I would ask then... What if, there was in fact an organization comprised of people smarter than you and obviously better than you at figuring out what is true or not - and I would go further - one that can tell you how to make better/more optimal decisions than you would have made without them? Wou…

Gandhi said, “Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.”

Humans value freedom too much. Statistically speaking, we would rather feel like we are in control, even if we have objectively worse outcomes that way. Just think about air travel vs driving: one is much more likely to die in an automobile accident per mile traveled, but air accidents are more terrifying because there's nothing one can do about it as it is happening. Humans are wired to be optimistic in the narrow sense of control systems theory: we believe can control everything. Hence childhood beliefs in telekinesis, but also the reason children blame themselves for their parents' divorces.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#896

Post by lambdatronics »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #271
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take the bait in the spirit of casual friday night internet debating and recognizing your tone as purely sarcastic. I would ask then... What if, there was in fact an organization comprised of people smarter than you and obviously better than you at figuring out what is true or not - and I would go further - one that can tell you how to make better/more optimal decisions than you would have made without them? Wou…

> Would you then cede your decision making to them if it were demonstrably better? There are, and I use them constantly in the form of domain experts. So does everyone. For example, I would never assume a plumber is wrong and I am right about pipes, though I may get a 2nd opinion. > Would you argue that you should be free to make measurably worse or less optimized decisions for yourself - by virtue of the value of yo…

> I would never assume a plumber is wrong and I am right about pipes

Hahah, great example. I want an explanation of everything -- from plumbers to doctors. I wouldn't start out with the assumption I'm right and they are wrong, but how do I tell a trustworthy one from an untrustworthy one? I got ripped off by an auto shop who sold me a bunch of pointless work because they were having a slow week -- it's not an academic question.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#897

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

hackyhacky wrote: post #699
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Weaponized misinformation has existed as long as human speech has existed. What is new is the democratization of it, hence the establishment’s hostility. Beautifully put. Better get ahead of it lest the proles gain class consciousness and use it against us.

I'm sure you mean that sarcastically, but you shouldn't. It's fun to complain about "the establishment," until it isn't there anymore. In the current case, "the establishment" means American democracy, which is built on people's faith in the institution of elections. If you erode that faith, democracy no longer works. That may be fine with you, but it's not fine with me.

>That may be fine with you, but it's not fine with me.

It is fine with me. If the choice is between continuing down the path we're on and some unknown chaos, I'm willing to roll the dice on the chaos.

At least it would be interesting.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#898

Post by lambdatronics »

imgabe wrote: post #608
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take the bait in the spirit of casual friday night internet debating and recognizing your tone as purely sarcastic. I would ask then... What if, there was in fact an organization comprised of people smarter than you and obviously better than you at figuring out what is true or not - and I would go further - one that can tell you how to make better/more optimal decisions than you would have made without them? Wou…

> What if, there was in fact an organization comprised of people smarter than you and obviously better than you at figuring out what is true or not - and I would go further - one that can tell you how to make better/more optimal decisions than you would have made without them? > Would you then cede your decision making to them if it were demonstrably better? No. Nobody should ever have to cede their decision making a…

>convince people without coercion

I think OP's question was whether one would voluntarily defer to some groups' decisions. Speaking about TFA, Youtube isn't coercing anyone, technically. There's no negative externality (punishment) being implemented, only the deprivation of a service that they provide. One might argue that since Youtube is effectively a monopoly, it's different. The counterargument is that people who want a different platform are free to go elsewhere. This appears to be happening with Parler as an alternative to Reddit, for instance. To bring things full-circle: "remember, the players are not your customers -- they are your new boss." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25376714

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#899

Post by DangitBobby »

aww_dang wrote: post #888
DangitBobby wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have invoked the fallacy fallacy. Unfortunately, special pleading is only a fallacy if something isn't actually different from the thing it's being compared to. So I disagree fundamentally that it's special pleading. The hostility is not just from establishment, it's from normal people like me, GP, and millions of other Americans that feel like we're taking crazy pills because of all the stupid shit people now in…

"Weaponized information" can mean everything from partisan hyperbole to observations that don't mesh with one's biases. Addicts everywhere repeat the phrase, "this time is different". What makes it special pleading is the lack of evidence or even a reasoned argument supporting this assertion.

Kinda just seems like you haven't been listening.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#900

Post by aww_dang »

DangitBobby wrote: post #899
aww_dang wrote: post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Weaponized information" can mean everything from partisan hyperbole to observations that don't mesh with one's biases. Addicts everywhere repeat the phrase, "this time is different". What makes it special pleading is the lack of evidence or even a reasoned argument supporting this assertion.

Kinda just seems like you haven't been listening.

You are cordially invited to qualify why "this time is different" and how speech or as you put it "weaponized misinformation", is equivalent to violence.

Defend the assertion with a reasoned argument. Otherwise, it is simply special pleading.

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