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Become Shell Literate

drewdevault.com

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Re: Become Shell Literate

#171

Post by lol768 »

l3s2d wrote: post #58
gfxgirl wrote: post #29

Someone should write "become IDE literate" as a response to opening of using vim with no extensions and using grep a lot. I've been using editors that are language aware since at least the late 90s. Depending on the language they'll show me all references, take me to the definition or declaration, stack those jumps so as I follow the links I can pop back a level to where I was. All of this is instant. 1000x faster th…

I've found that IDEs work well when you're working within a single language or framework, but are clunky for multi-language projects. It's easier for me to have 4 terminals open (2 for vim, 2 for execution) than two different language-aware IDEs. With the IDEs, I need to pay attention to which IDE I'm in since they have different shortcuts and UIs.

Which languages do you mix and match that something like IntelliJ IDEA can't support?

Re: Become Shell Literate

#172

Post by pessimizer »

vvanders wrote: post #120
turbinerneiter wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I fault anyone, where am I gatekeeping? I'm talking about the befits of knowing more stuff. I'm not arguing against IDEs, I'm only arguing about the benefit of also knowing other stuff. Better tools: I'm very interested in, what I would in lieu of a better term describe as, Bret Victor's ideas and the example of Swift playground. At the same time, I'm very sceptic against everything that isn't a simple, hum…

By framing the IDE as a crutch, that's very much in the gatekeeping category.

Is "gatekeeping" now just another word for making people feel bad? Like "pretentious" or "elitist" has become? Nobody is saying that people with crutches shouldn't be allowed to walk.

edit: It's so strange to not only demand the right to not know how to do something without a complicated tool (a right which is inalienable and not threatened), but to also demand that people who do know how to do that thing not think that it is better to know how to do that thing. I get that when one has invested their time into a tool they want to defend its usage, but people who aren't dependent on a particular vendor's tool have also invested time, and should be able to think it's better to not be dependent on a particular vendor without it being considered violence or bullying (in the modern twitter sense.)

Re: Become Shell Literate

#173

Post by __turbobrew__ »

wott wrote: post #131
spijdar wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emotionally, I actually agree with this. I'd love for at least a basic understanding of computers down to boolean logic and the very basics of semiconductors up to the OS level and beyond to be "widely known" by programmers and "computer literate". At the same time, I know that's extremely unreasonable to expect. I guess for the shell and editor, you can argue you ought to understand it stripped of abstractions, sinc…

> At the same time, I know that's extremely unreasonable to expect. However, that's exactly the path every Electrical & Electronics Engineer classically took.

Yea, this was basically my computer engineering curriculum. Start at solid state physics, build a transistor, boolean logic, digital circuit design, cpu design, operating systems and device drivers, and then software engineering.

Most people in my class ended up at the top of the stack (operating systems and software engineering) since the jobs are more numerous and the pay is better.

Re: Become Shell Literate

#174

Post by yellowapple »

gfxgirl wrote: post #29

Someone should write "become IDE literate" as a response to opening of using vim with no extensions and using grep a lot. I've been using editors that are language aware since at least the late 90s. Depending on the language they'll show me all references, take me to the definition or declaration, stack those jumps so as I follow the links I can pop back a level to where I was. All of this is instant. 1000x faster th…

A big part of the reason I gravitated toward Emacs is that it hits the best of both worlds there; by default, it's a simple editor, but it can be extended with the exact set of IDE-esque features with which I'm comfortable.

Re: Become Shell Literate

#176

Post by xx789 »

tharne wrote: post #170
xx789 wrote: post #165

Sign me up for someone who hates the shell. I've always tried to write scripts in Python or even C++ is so much easier than bash, awk, etc. Bash has no repl, no unit tests not debugger its anachronistic. Don't get me started on emacs.

> Bash has no repl, no unit tests not debugger Bash scripts are generally very short. If you need unit tests and a debugger you probably should be using something other than Bash. But saying you hate the shell because it's bad at something it was never designed for is silly.

At work I regularly have to support 500+ line scripts written by random developers, I 'n hate them.

Re: Become Shell Literate

#177

Post by LeoPanthera »

kaszanka wrote: post #167

That pipeline sure does look convenient. Let's see how it will handle a path with spaces. $ git status -s | grep '^ D' | awk '{ print $2 }' | xargs git checkout -- xargs: unmatched double quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option $ git status -s D "g h i" I'd be lying if I said I was surprised, to be honest.

You can fix it by replacing the awk with "cut -d ' ' -f 2-"

Haven't tested it, but you may also need to throw a "tr '\n' '\0'" in there and call xargs with "-0" to make it happy.

This will still break on files with a CR in the filename.

(CRs are allowed in unix filenames but, imho, they should not be.)

Re: Become Shell Literate

#178

Post by __turbobrew__ »

chaganated wrote: post #132
gfxgirl wrote: post #29

Someone should write "become IDE literate" as a response to opening of using vim with no extensions and using grep a lot. I've been using editors that are language aware since at least the late 90s. Depending on the language they'll show me all references, take me to the definition or declaration, stack those jumps so as I follow the links I can pop back a level to where I was. All of this is instant. 1000x faster th…

Sounds like a reinforcement of Drew's point to me. Using the IDE to jump all over the place, and blast changes over several files at once, suggests severe and unnecessary non-localities and tight couplings in the code. Maybe without the IDE, the code would have ended up a little cleaner.

> Maybe without the IDE, the code would have ended up a little cleaner.

When you can’t easily jump from file to file and get intellisense like completion you are forced to design modules and data models which can fit inside your head. I imagine this can be a feature in some cases and a limitation in others.

I tend to only use an IDE when refactoring, and a text editor for everything else. So far I haven’t had to write or work on code which I can’t keep all in my head; maybe I have just been lucky with the codebases I have worked on?

Re: Become Shell Literate

#179

Post by enneff »

gfxgirl wrote: post #29

Someone should write "become IDE literate" as a response to opening of using vim with no extensions and using grep a lot. I've been using editors that are language aware since at least the late 90s. Depending on the language they'll show me all references, take me to the definition or declaration, stack those jumps so as I follow the links I can pop back a level to where I was. All of this is instant. 1000x faster th…

Those tools are all great and I have that in Vim but I also have the whole shell environment to do many other things that have nothing to do with the content of the code.

Re: Become Shell Literate

#180

Post by DeBraid »

strulovich wrote: post #101

Piping and shell commands are powerful, but generally a bad experience. You have to plan your command, try to run it and understand how all the piping steps work. If you get it wrong, it’s an annoying experience. As an alternative, try Sublime with multiple selection (or other editors). With multiple selection skills you can transform your lines in a WYSIWYG interactive format which is much easier to work with for me…

> try Sublime with multiple selection (or other editors). With multiple selection skills you can transform ...

Yes! This saves me time consistently. I could wrangle a shell script, or where pattern-matching is essential, using text editor to select w/ keyboard shortcuts is VERY powerful.

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