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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#761
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're private platforms. You can send those links via many other routes ... That is a complete non sequitur. You say it's not about freedom of speech. Someone responds that, in fact, blatant censorship is occurring. You don't even attempt to refute this point, instead falling back to pointing out that the censorship isn't illegal! Censorship reduces freedom to speak. That statement remains true whether or not the…

Removing spam could be considered a form of censorship. It is removing the speech of others. Generally anti-spam measures facilitate rather than inhibit freedom of speech. A sufficiently popular internet forum without spam controls would quickly become mostly unusable. In this case, doesn't censorship enable freedom to speak?

These aren't singular global quantities. Such censorship reduces spammers' freedom to speak in order to preserve that of the other participants. Spamming closely resembles a tragedy of the commons (overuse of the system to solicit sales) and anti-spam an associated regulatory action.

The problem with such an analogy is that spam is inherently off topic - approximately none of the other participants actually want to see it. That's fundamentally different from this case. Whether you deem it misinformation or political speech, many of the participants clearly do want to see it. In fact, they want to see it so much that such information is consistently selected by the automated algorithms that are designed specifically to maximize engagement metrics.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#763
post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For traditional publishing there is at least one person that is ultimately responsible for publishing it. The person is in the vast majority of cases subject to the same jurisdiction. On YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, etc. I can push my agenda worldwide. Russia, China, Iran, and other non-democracies can make insane amounts of propaganda for very cheap to reach millions of people. The engagement algorithms even help t…

seems youtube is blocked in china and iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_YouTube

I don't see how the Chinese and Iranian governments need to worry about YouTube being blocked when they want to spread propaganda in the US and Europe.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there is now firm legal precedent that greatly limits their ability to do it again. There are also the situations of highly targeted minorities that would now be unable to protect themselves, because you've made anonymity illegal. These people really do need anonymity to protect themselves. And no amount of laws can protect someone from a hate mob attacking them, that doesn't care about the consequences. One of…

> There are also the situations of highly targeted minorities that would now be unable to protect themselves because you've made anonymity illegal. These people really do need anonymity to protect themselves. To reiterate, I was specifically talking about circumstances where people broadcast to mass audiences. If people of a certain minority want to congregate together in a private space to discuss things important t…

> To reiterate, I was specifically talking about circumstances where people broadcast to mass audiences

Ok, and I think that it is important that highly targeted minorities are free to broadcast to mass audiences, without having to worry about being targeted or harrassed. Anyone who is fighting for civil rights, could become the target of mass hate and harassment, for both themselves and their friends and family, if the hate mob decides to target them.

If these groups did not have these protections, then it would only be the privileged, who would be able to express themselves to a wide audience. Other people, who are more frequently targeted, would no long have a voice.

> they should have every right to do so in private.

They should have the right to do that in public, as well, to a mass audience, while also being able to take actions to protect themselves from harassment, by being anonymous.

> but I haven't seen a hate mob running down my street for a while.

Women and minorities face a lot of harassment. It is not about a "physical" mob. There are more ways that mobs can target and harass people, than just some mob on the street engaging in physical violence.

I am not sure what to tell you, if you are not aware of all the threats and harassment that these people can get, from randos.

> So you seem to have a lot of trust in warrants being issued justly

Being forced to issue a warrant is another protection. That is much better, than if some random government official, just has access to that information, and can retaliate against you, without anyone being able to find out about it.

> also a great fear that the government will turn against you.

It is not just about some totalitarian regime. Instead it is about the in between stuff. Things like a no name burocrat, having your information, and using their power to target you, without there being a easy way for them to get caught.

Warrets and paper trails make it more difficult for government officials to abuse the information that they would otherwise have access to, if it was all available without a warrent.

> Is there nothing you'd change about it?

Yes, I would provide more ways for people to be even more anonymous, and provide stronger methods for people to protect themselves from retaliation, whether that be by random government employees, or random people on the internet.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#765
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it legal in the US to encourage people to jump in front of a train? If the answer is no then telling people to drink rat poison is illegal. The legal system has the power to punish the uploader, and youtube can remove it just as it do with copyright infringements. If the answer is yes then I would suggest to change the law. Pushing people to drink rat poison sound awful close to harassment, which is just the kind…

What if politicians do stunts and tell you to drink water poisoned with lead like in Flint, Michigan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ZynkD3N_k Should we censor them? Or perhaps just put up a warning sign that not everything on the Internet - like the physical world - is worth believing? Where do the guardrails end and censorship begin?

If you have a law and a politician seems to be breaking it, then the usual answer is to have a prosecutor to look into it.

Politician also have what is called a position of trust, so in addition to legal enforcement there could also be a vote at that political level to remove said politician.

In addition, I would imagine that encouraging people to drink water poisoned with lead can put that politician in legal liability if anyone got sick.

I will add that the US has a odd legal system which potentially give the president permission to ignore laws. The best way to fix that is to remove that exclusive protection, and if its a constitutional problem, fix the constitution.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#766

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

The disconcerting part is that right here in this thread the Americans are still arguing as if this is a battle with two teams, one of which wins, the other loses.

So here's the thing.

The US [social media] corporations have to lose. Simply because we already found out years ago, that ethics doesn't scale. UNLESS they solve this problem, this simply means that they OUGHT not to exist, at that scale.

The American people are of course inevitably coming out as the losers too, because of the gigantic inequalities, and the corporate capitalist culture grazing on the weak.

So it's lose/lose. Everything's broken. GLHF

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#767
post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An algorithm doesn't write or tune itself. This is unnecessary pedantry.

Actually, in the age of ML it more or less does. You wire up the model, specify the metrics to optimize for, and then feed it lots of data. The algorithm figures out the details of how to achieve the specified goal on it's own. Have a look at ( https://cs.stanford.edu/people/karpathy/convnetjs ).

Who chooses the model, metrics and data?

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#768
post #726
post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> foreign governments and other actors actively seeking to polarize society > What are some better alternatives? I have no idea if it's mathematically possible but I'd be optimistic about the potential of a (hypothetical) privacy preserving web of trust metric. It would be really nice to have at least some limited indication of how the person behind the account fits into the world at large. Right now you can't reliab…

But web of trust is still something you have to know and consciously decide to use. What if a majority of people would simply ignore it because it conflicts with the opinion formed in their own bubble - or if they simply don't know about it or don't know how to use it?

Not if it's built into the communication platform you happen to be using. Just one or a few basic indicators to give you even the slightest bit of information about who wrote what you're reading. Just a simple "p = 0.03 US resident" or an aggregate trust score based on a combination of social graph connectivity and spam reports or something. Sure, people could intentionally ignore it, but right now there's no indicator to be had even if you want it!

To be clear, I'm not talking about present day clunky GPG web of trust with key signing parties and all that. I'm talking about a hypothetical (ie as yet nonexistent) magical web of trust that somehow doesn't destroy your privacy in the process of being used. (It's not as crazy as it sounds - we already have zero knowledge proofs, blinded encryption, and various other privacy preserving cryptographic schemes.)

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about banning disagreement. It's not even about opinions. It's about combating weaponized misinformation. It's strange for Americans to be on the business side of a propaganda weapon, as we're more used to using against our enemies. Technology has finally made it feasible for malicious actors to cheaply and effectively manipulate people with lies, here in the US. If you don't believe it's a weapon, you're wr…

You are assuming that the regular media is the default, the truth, and that propaganda didn’t exist prior to 2016. Read Manufacturing Consent for a brief overview of this history of widespread weaponization of information by innumerable actors. Weaponized misinformation has existed as long as human speech has existed. What is new is the democratization of it, hence the establishment’s hostility.

The problem is that now we have weapons of mass information distraction.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam isn't a race. If you criticize Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or yes, even Islamism, you aren't being racist.

The poster meant bigoted. This is pedantic.

I did. Thank you.
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