The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire • Hacker News Board

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#611

Post by visarga » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

greenflame7 wrote: post #566

scoot_718 wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not contradictory to be intolerant of the intolerant. To allow free speech for those who call for such repugnant lies is to tacitly accept them. Likewise, no government should allow for parties that would destroy itself - yet here America is, falling apart.

By that logic its not contradictory to be intolerant of people intolerant of intolerance. Or is it only valid logic with an even number of intolerances?

This logic doesn't work in the abstract, you got to apply it to a concrete situation. Each situation is different, they are not all the same to be judged in one swoop.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#612

Post by autocorr » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #495

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

Well, on the flip-side the previous thread from the announcement blog received the most comments I have ever seen on a HN post. About 3000? And most of those were displeased reactions.

A lot of people are talking past each other in these posts or arguing against straw-men. In my view, many of the seemingly "pro censorship" posts are hacker-spirits, just arguing from the point: "look, this is a natural outcome of unrestricted, powerful BigCo's". I don't think a monolith like YouTube was as ever an acceptable solution for the Hacker. We should build technical, distributed systems for sharing videos that can't be controlled as easily and then fight for the right to use them at the ballot box.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#613

Post by ceilingcorner » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:02 AM UTC

hackyhacky wrote: post #607

ceilingcorner wrote: post #495

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

It's not about banning disagreement. It's not even about opinions. It's about combating weaponized misinformation. It's strange for Americans to be on the business side of a propaganda weapon, as we're more used to using against our enemies. Technology has finally made it feasible for malicious actors to cheaply and effectively manipulate people with lies, here in the US. If you don't believe it's a weapon, you're wr…

You are assuming that the regular media is the default, the truth, and that propaganda didn’t exist prior to 2016. Read Manufacturing Consent for a brief overview of this history of widespread weaponization of information by innumerable actors.

Weaponized misinformation has existed as long as human speech has existed. What is new is the democratization of it, hence the establishment’s hostility.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#614

Post by aaronbrethorst » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

awak3ning wrote: post #594

If I were a foreign actor with malign intent towards the US, I would be very pleased with how things are playing out. 1. Corrosion of formerly stalwart American Institutions 2. The majority of Americans being habituated to mistrust their fellow American 3. The ability for a few entities with concentrated power to harness and control the nervous systems of millions of Americans

If you are Matt or Glenn, or stalwart followers of either, then this line of thinking is strictly verboten.

(Which is funny because I think Glenn’s express aim is to do everything he can to undermine American hegemony. Shrug.)

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#615

Post by Green_man » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:05 AM UTC

pnw_hazor wrote: post #325

Daishiman wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a doctor and you claim this then those are grounds for having your license stripped and being held criminally liable if people actually take you up for advice.

Sure their may be consequences for speech that is later determined by a court and with due process to be unprotected. But no US law can prevent you from saying it in the first place.

>But no US law can prevent you from saying it in the first place.

neither does youtube removing videos.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#616

Post by parsimo2010 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:07 AM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #495

I find it really disconcerting how many people on Hacker News want a corporate entity to decide what information is deemed acceptable to know. Do you even know where that word came from? The irony is almost overwhelming. But I digress... The idea that banning certain information will somehow result in it disappearing has been shown repeatedly to not work. A cursory reading of history should make this clear. You canno…

“You’ll only create further echo chambers, both on your own platform and on the (new) platforms inevitably created by the exiled.”

In case anyone is wondering, this isn’t just hypothetical. The website full30.com was created specifically because YouTube decided that talking about guns wasn’t advertiser-friendly. There weren’t that many gun-related videos that YouTube actually removed, but they started to de-monetize just about any video that focused on guns. So the affected creators didn’t stop making videos, they just made their own content delivery solution.

So it’s not just a hypothetical, it has already happened and the other echo chambers are out there with a warm embrace for the affected content creators. The only thing YouTube is effectively doing is making its bubble more insular, so that Californians can act more surprised the next time the country elects someone like Trump.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#617

Post by skolsuper » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

newfriend wrote: post #289

maccard wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the most shallow and outright racist comments I've ever seen on this site.

Islam isn't a race. If you criticize Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or yes, even Islamism, you aren't being racist.

You left a certain major world religion off your list that counters your argument... Accident?

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#618

Post by hackyhacky » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #613

hackyhacky wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about banning disagreement. It's not even about opinions. It's about combating weaponized misinformation. It's strange for Americans to be on the business side of a propaganda weapon, as we're more used to using against our enemies. Technology has finally made it feasible for malicious actors to cheaply and effectively manipulate people with lies, here in the US. If you don't believe it's a weapon, you're wr…

You are assuming that the regular media is the default, the truth, and that propaganda didn’t exist prior to 2016. Read Manufacturing Consent for a brief overview of this history of widespread weaponization of information by innumerable actors. Weaponized misinformation has existed as long as human speech has existed. What is new is the democratization of it, hence the establishment’s hostility.

This is the kinds of "both-sides-ism" that gives centrists a bad reputation. You're basically saying: "everyone uses media to achieve their goals, therefore all sides are equally bad." No. Using misinformation to intentionally disrupt a democratic election is demonstrably dangerous to society.

Say what you will about the "establishment," but traditional media still bear some semblance of the truth. Now we're seeing that anyone with enough money and Twitter followers and completely ignore the truth. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#619

Post by forgingahead » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

A lot of gymnastics in the comments here trying to justify the Youtube decision. Take a step back: If things are free-and-fair, then let transparency prove your point. As Taibbi correctly points out in his article, bending over backwards to STOP transparency and debate is simply fuel to the fire of the people who believe otherwise than you do.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#620

Post by jb775 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

jiofih wrote: post #4

Then what? Allowing false information to fester is wrong, censorship is wrong. The way forward is to ban recommendation algorithms and go back to personal (as in, from other humans you know) recommendation systems.

> Allowing false information to fester is wrong

So what happens when "false" information "conspiracy theories" turn out to be true? How should it be handled when people in the position to censor information choose to do so in bad faith? (e.g. they lied about it being fake, or they weren't sure it was fake but they chose to censor bc it aligned with their political beliefs) And what if the censorship impacts were time sensitive? (e.g. they negligently censored sensitive election-related information immediately before an election, and then decided to report it as legitimate news shortly after the election - after the censorship goal was accomplished)

"Oops we made a mistake" is not even close to an acceptable response. I say we treat free speech more like civil rights, harsh penalties and all.

From the article: Hunter Biden was announcing that his “tax affairs” were under investigation....That news was denounced as Russian disinformation by virtually everyone in “reputable” media, who often dismissed the story with an aristocratic snort....That tale was not Russian disinformation, however, and Biden’s announcement this week strongly suggests Twitter and Facebook suppressed a real story of legitimate public interest just before a presidential election.