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Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

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Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#131

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

If you can claim the tax back what's the point in charging it?

For simplification. If a pound of coffee is bought at Costco, it's hard to figure out if it is for household consumption or for a business. The business might sell a cup of coffee, or it could be a hotel that gives away free coffee to its guest.

So, at least for sales taxes, it is easier if everyone just pay it and the claim it at the end. It's the same as income taxes, where a set amount is deducted on a pay check and the taxpayer gets a refund at the end of the year.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#132
Now compare this with not having a sales tax or VAT and just having a tax on employment instead - paid by the business, not the employee.

Which follows once you realise that government taxes to release resources for its own use, which given government is largely service based means employees.

Now you have a tax that is progressive, not regressive and deals with the vertical integration issue.

Employees are what create the "value add". Tax is required to release employees for the public use, which means you want less employment in the private sector than there otherwise would be.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#134

VAT and other models are pure socialist and communist models. Sales tax as imposed by fly over states is correct way. Europe is lost cause. They haven't invented anything in last 70 years neither they have single technology company making heads spin. Communist, from where this author seems to be, only care of adding more taxes. I would say these people have some components of their brain misaligned. I am researching…

ARM? ASML?

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#135

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

Author here. I very much appreciate your polite tone! I'm aware that taxes on items for resale aren't treated like in the toy model. (This is mentioned in the article already.) Can you please take a look at this article and let me know if it changes your view: https://www.cost.org/globalassets/cost/state-tax-resources-p...

Thanks for the interesting link. I've read it and here are my thoughts:

- The paper talks about business inputs, which is anything a business purchases. Businesses need to pay sales tax on items, unless they are intended for resale. So they're going to be charged sales tax for the coffee machine for the break room for example.

- I disagree that sales tax is a "household consumer"-only tax. It's just a consumption tax. No state exempts all business purchases, so this extra "household" bit is a position they're pushing. Part of their argument is similar to other anti-business tax policy papers that think tanks in the US put out regularly. The argument goes: businesses must pass all costs to consumers, therefore business taxes increase costs to consumers, therefore businesses should not be taxed since it's really consumers that pay those taxes.

- This is the pyramiding they refer to: Business needs to pay sales tax on coffee machine. If they pass this cost on to consumers, they'll increase the price of their products by a fraction of a cent, and that increase will increase the sales tax the consumer must pay (sales tax on that fraction of a cent).

- I'm not surprised by the high percentage of business purchases paying sales taxes. As the paper mentions, 79% of consumer purchases are sales tax exempt (items like food). Of the remaining 21%, many of those items are utilized by businesses.. items like desks, computers, etc. The high percentage of sales taxes being paid by business is likely due to the shear quantity of household purchases that are exempt.

- On the comparison to a gross receipts tax: If I sell pencils (an item generally subject to sales tax), I'm collecting sales tax on many purchases. The difference is that GRT would tax all revenue, versus sales tax would have exceptions for resale, sales to schools and other exempt organizations, sales shipped to areas without sales tax (or where a business doesnt have a nexus), international sales, etc. So to make the comparison work, we need to be very careful about defining the business: I sell pencils locally to end consumers, and I interrogate each customer to make sure they're not affiliated with a school, won't try to resell my pencil, etc. Once we do that, the comparison gets pretty ridiculous. In practice, these are two different tax regimes, and only by glossing over the differences can we make them sound similar.

- On vertical integration to avoid sales tax: This is a very specific scenario that I don't imagine happens too often. A business that sells X, but uses a lot of Y for some purpose not related to producing X. Additionally Y must have a very high markup (if not, the acquirer will be paying sales tax on the inputs for Y, and will save nothing on sales tax). Maybe my imagination is lacking... but I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where this would occur and it would be the sales tax (5-8%) that would be the deciding factor on whether to vertically integrate.

My take on this paper is what I mentioned in my 2nd point... it's an anti-business tax paper written to encourage governments to cut business taxes. You can decide your position on that. I generally think businesses should pay taxes.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#136

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

Author here. I very much appreciate your polite tone! I'm aware that taxes on items for resale aren't treated like in the toy model. (This is mentioned in the article already.) Can you please take a look at this article and let me know if it changes your view: https://www.cost.org/globalassets/cost/state-tax-resources-p...

I did not find the cost.org article helpful at all. It just seems to advocate that if a business has customers, then everything it buys is a business input, any sales tax the business would pay would be "pyramiding", and the business should be exempt from paying tax on all of it, even things like the pens, paper, and envelopes it uses for old-fashioned business correspondence.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#137
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I wish there was more of it. However it seems to me like this is becoming more and more rare on HN or harder to find by being drowned out.

people have been saying this ever since I joined HN in 2009

And throughout those years, HN has remained the most constructive discussion of any slice of the internet I visit.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#138

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the author isn't from the US. He includes sales tax on items purchased for resale.... which is an exception in every state that I know of. Even if you purchase an item at retail with sales tax, you can file to receive the money back from the state. Additionally sales tax has nothing to do with whether your supply chain is fully integrated, and hiring all of your suppliers as emp…

This type of blog post is the most dangerous — it has very detailed examples with math and diagrams, which lead the reader to think the author is an expert. Even I — someone who used to be a tax lawyer, but focused on federal issues (not state/local) — was second-guessing my expertise when I read the article.

Everything about it sounded wrong to me, but I couldn't imagine someone taking the time to write up such a detailed blog post without either being a state/local tax expert, or consulting with experts prior to writing this.

I hope that the author can learn more about the topic and revise the post, so that more people are not led astray by incorrect theories and examples that are detailed but not accurate at all.

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking specifically about cash transactions? Because ebay collects sales tax now.

In general, sellers only need to collect sales tax if they meet the legal definition of "reseller". The test varies from state to state, but is generally a combination of gross annual revenue from sales and number of sales transactions per year. Generally, transactions between private parties are not subject to sales tax. eBay was hit by special "marketplace facilitator" clauses in remote tax laws that have popped up…

Yes but in practice it means that reselling old used stuff is now taxed, which of course discourages the reuse part of the reduce, reuse, recycle paradigm.

FB marketplace has the same tax requirement, so that only leaves cash transactions on craigslist now (which people probably wouldn't pay the tax even if were required).

Re: Sales tax creates more unnecessary pain than value added tax

#140

> The US has sales tax Something like 25-30% of the US (by area) does not have any sales tax at all [1]. [1] https://www.thebalance.com/states-without-a-sales-tax-319330...

Also, the rate used in the example is double the sales tax rate in even the highest jurisdictions. More to the point, the author doesn't understand that no sales tax is paid when it's being used as a business input for resale.

But the thing that made my radar go up was that it was talking about a US sales tax rate of 20%, which is just plain nuts. Even in CA, the highest rates crest just above 10%.

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