Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#1

Post by michael_miller » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:08 AM UTC

I've had experience interning out at a large Silicon Valley company(soon to be two). It's been a blast, and I've had a ton of fun. I've gotten a pretty good feel for how Silicon Valley operates, and I know I'd be happy taking a full-time offer out there. However, part of me wonders what other possibilities there are beyond the Bay Area.

One particular area which I'm curious about is finance. My (limited) understanding of software engineering in finance is that developers are treated as second-class citizens, paid comparatively poorly(though not absolutely) to traders, and are expected to put in long hours. The last part doesn't bother me so much, but I am curious about the first two aspects.

I'd be interested to hear from people working in finance on the following questions:

- Is it true that developers are treated like support staff to traders?

- To be blunt: What are typical salaries for software engineers in finance?

- For those who have experience working in the Valley as well: how does it compare?

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#2

Post by cdmcnamara » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:38 AM UTC

I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into either doing quant development or working at a respected proprietary trading firm like Susquehanna International Group, Optiver, GETCO, Jane Street, etc. These firms are definitely more quant and your development skills will be utilized here far more than at a large bank. Hope this helps.

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#3

Post by cdmcnamara » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:39 AM UTC

cdmcnamara wrote: post #2

I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into either doing quant development or working…

The starting salaries in the Technology Analyst programs at large banks in NYC are ~65k.

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#4

Post by michael_miller » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:49 AM UTC

cdmcnamara wrote: post #3

cdmcnamara wrote: post #2

I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into either doing quant development or working…

The starting salaries in the Technology Analyst programs at large banks in NYC are ~65k.

That seems really, really low in comparison to Silicon Valley. The typical numbers I've heard thrown around are 90-100k for new CS grads, plus bonuses. Does "Technology Analyst" refer to 'IT guy' or 'developer'? Also, the salary seems really hard to live on in NYC(being from the area).

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#5

Post by michael_miller » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:50 AM UTC

cdmcnamara wrote: post #2

I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into either doing quant development or working…

Curious, what was your role, if you don't mind saying? Were you a developer? Did you find the problems you were working on interesting? Would you go back?

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#6

Post by veyron » Thu, May 12, 2011, 4:55 AM UTC

tl;dr: at most banks, the traders directly drive pnl. developers are seen as secondary since they treat the process as developers supporting traders. At other places, the developers are the true source of "alpha", and there the developers are treated like rock stars.

"developers are treated as second-class citizens" There are two classes of developers: those who drive pnl and tose who don't.

To give an example, I built an ultra low latency trading operation. My development [granted, it was only part of my work process] directly resulted in pnl and it could be proven.

Some of my friends worked in the IT departments of some investment banks (GS, MS, JPM, etc). Many of them are doing things which do not directly generate pnl, nor could their work be attributed to the revenue of any division.

"paid comparatively poorly(though not absolutely) to traders" Traders are paid more because it is easier to attribute pnl to them. Developers in a quantitative shop are paid better than the traders, because in those contexts the developers bring more value to the process than traders.

"are expected to put in long hours" I've never had to work outside of 9-6. However, in some places, where they care about headcount, people work longer hours.

"- Is it true that developers are treated like support staff to traders?"

Depends on the place

"- To be blunt: What are typical salaries for software engineers in finance?"

For support, salaries are like 70K. At a quant shop, you are looking at like 100-150K. At a hft developer, 200-300K is pretty common (but those jobs are hard to land, mainly because those funds arent doing as well thanks to a low VIX)

"- For those who have experience working in the Valley as well: how does it compare?"

Cannot say

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#7

Post by veyron » Thu, May 12, 2011, 5:00 AM UTC

michael_miller wrote: post #4

cdmcnamara wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The starting salaries in the Technology Analyst programs at large banks in NYC are ~65k.

That seems really, really low in comparison to Silicon Valley. The typical numbers I've heard thrown around are 90-100k for new CS grads, plus bonuses. Does "Technology Analyst" refer to 'IT guy' or 'developer'? Also, the salary seems really hard to live on in NYC(being from the area).

Front-office technology staffers at fixed income shops easily make 200K first year. The drudgery there comes from having to support trading software.

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#8

Post by michael_miller » Thu, May 12, 2011, 5:03 AM UTC

cdmcnamara wrote: post #3

cdmcnamara wrote: post #2

I completed an internship at a large bank this summer in their Technology Analyst program. They basically house all the technical people into technology and it ranges from IT people to developers. Within the world of finance front office > all and are treated like it and treat others like crap. If you're really interested in working in finance as a developer I would look into either doing quant development or working…

The starting salaries in the Technology Analyst programs at large banks in NYC are ~65k.

[can't reply directly to your latest comment, so doing it here]

'first year' == new grad? What is the income "ceiling" in this role? And why is supporting trading software bad? What does it entail?

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#9

Post by michael_miller » Thu, May 12, 2011, 5:05 AM UTC

veyron wrote: post #6

tl;dr: at most banks, the traders directly drive pnl. developers are seen as secondary since they treat the process as developers supporting traders. At other places, the developers are the true source of "alpha", and there the developers are treated like rock stars. "developers are treated as second-class citizens" There are two classes of developers: those who drive pnl and tose who don't. To give an example, I bui…

What skills do HFT shops look for in a developer? Do they require finance knowledge, or do they "just" want a rockstar systems hacker who can optimize packet delivery latency by hacking the kernel?

Re: Ask HN: What's it like working as a finance developer?

#10

Post by nandemo » Thu, May 12, 2011, 7:13 AM UTC

michael_miller wrote: post #9

veyron wrote: post #6

tl;dr: at most banks, the traders directly drive pnl. developers are seen as secondary since they treat the process as developers supporting traders. At other places, the developers are the true source of "alpha", and there the developers are treated like rock stars. "developers are treated as second-class citizens" There are two classes of developers: those who drive pnl and tose who don't. To give an example, I bui…

What skills do HFT shops look for in a developer? Do they require finance knowledge, or do they "just" want a rockstar systems hacker who can optimize packet delivery latency by hacking the kernel?

Some people are making reports using Excel/VBA or Perl, some are building trading gateways in C++ from scratch, some are developing trading models (typically requires a PhD or a financial engineering master's).

Take a look at the websites of the prop trading shops cdmcnamara mentioned. Mind you, getting a job at SIG, Jane Street, etc, is harder than getting a job at Google, Facebook, etc.