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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

taibbi.substack.com

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#141

Post by _y5hn »

dmix wrote: post #24
swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

That what I find most amusing about the “everyone should vote”. Then they complain about the stupid people and policies that get voted in. I might be okay with “every informed person should vote”. But that “informed” part can be heavily politically interpreted. People have largely missed the fact that politics used to be the domain of informed groups fighting for power blocs. Now it’s been “decentralized” and radical…

Better parties sounds like they could end stalemate between billionaires. Both voting blocs have legitimate concerns that need better addressing.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#142

Post by zabardasth »

gabereiser wrote: post #9
swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

YouTube can choose to keep or delete any content on their platform regardless of truth/free speech/or not. It's in the EULA. You want free speech, go outside and yell. No one is stopping anyone from free speech. What Google is doing is cleaning up content on their service according to their EULA. If you disagree with the EULA, you can gladly go use another service. I will add, targeting a specific genre of videos loo…

> YouTube can choose to keep or delete any content on their platform regardless of truth/free speech/or not. It's in the EULA. You want free speech, go outside and yell. No one is stopping anyone from free speech. What Google is doing is cleaning up content on their service according to their EULA. If you disagree with the EULA, you can gladly go use another service.

Fine, then they are publishers in that case, not a neutral platform. Section 230 should be immediately repealed.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#143

Post by lawnchair_larry »

vladTheInhaler wrote: post #77
katmannthree wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a utilitarian point of view. This is not about grounding people who already went off the deep end, it's about reducing the number of people who get radicalized. I think from that perspective deplatforming radicals is both ethical and effective.

I don't understand why you are being downvoted. People may not agree with the sentiment, but it seems salient and reasonably stated.

Because people who aren’t radicals have been called radicals, and there’s no way that anyone trusts anyone else to decide who is a radical.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#144

Post by NeutronStar »

handoflixue wrote: post #136
swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

Question: Why is this a threat to democracy, but previous censorship wasn't? There's always been an expectation of truthfulness in communication: We don't allow people to go around claiming that Pepsi causes AIDS, or cures cancer. You're not allowed to claim you're collecting for a charity, and then keep all the money for yourself. I doubt you'd be terribly okay with me claiming that you're a murderer and asking how…

If you can prove the lies did damages then you have to pay for the damages. But you still have the right to say it. Having the right to speak doesn't mean there's no consequences to it.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#145

Post by souprock »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #54

Democracy will eventually die. “In sum, the majority of Americans are generally unable to understand or value democratic culture, institutions, practices or citizenship in the manner required”. “To the degree to which they are required to do so, they will interpret what is demanded of them in distorting and inadequate ways. As a result they will interact and communicate in ways that undermine the functioning of democ…

Amusingly, the author is clearly one of those who are "generally unable to understand or value democratic culture, institutions, practices or citizenship in the manner required". The one-sided blame makes it clear that he can't graciously accept defeat.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#146

Post by danieltillett »

mewse wrote: post #123
danieltillett wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok what if your telephone or internet company decided the same thing? We will listen in to your private conversations and if you say something we don’t like we will terminate your contract. Some services are so large and entrenched that they have become natural monopolies that need to be regulated. We place restrictions on what natural monopolies can do because of the effects on society as a whole. The question that…

I’m not seeing a parallel, here. Your example is mixing in a whole bunch of “invasion of privacy” which doesn’t exist in the real situation being discussed, and is going to vastly impact people’s emotional reaction. Why not use the more natural example? “What if a television network decided the same thing? We will watch your publicly broadcast television show and if you say something we don’t like we will cancel your…

So what happens when you have a group phone call? Should the telephone company be able to listen in and censor those as it wishes?

The parallel is phone companies in the past did listen in to people’s conversation, but this was recognised as an abuse of a monopoly power. Regulations were introduced to stop this sort of activity.

What we should be discussing is how to regulate natural monopolies like YouTube, not if they should be able to just do whatever they like. Like all regulation there will need to be a balance, but society has a vested interest in ensuring natural monopolies are not abusing their power.

Even if YouTube is not abusing its power, the fact it can is a concern.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#147

Post by ethn »

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

Further, even if the citizen ostensibly advocates the wrong belief, or say are persuaded by an adversary, that belief becomes the legitimate value of the population regardless of the reason—-as democracy is purposed to obligate government to pursue the values of its citizens.

I’ve been to a country with a dictatorship with a faux democracy and no free speech. I asked the minister of journalism & communications whether he believes that free speech is possible in a democracy. He unabashedly said no, as there is no guarantee the “consensus” will be “correct”, especially given the influence of its adversaries.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#148

Post by billy_beef »

mpoteat wrote: post #127
nprz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think payment processors and ISPs should be able to deny service to customers for any arbitrary reason as well?

As long as it isn't due to a protected class reason, I don't immediately see the problem. If you break your ISPs TOS, or you commit fraud, it makes sense that those private companies would not want you as a customer.

My ISP TOS, to my knowledge, do not contain language about preventing me from retrieving otherwise legal to obtain content, do yours?

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#149

Post by maccard »

lopmotr wrote: post #140
nonbirithm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has to be a good reason why psychological warfare is used, including by the United States in periods like the Vietnam War. The expectation is that statements written on paper or recited through loudspeakers or similar influence people's thoughts, which influences what actions they will take. Those actions are supposed to be beneficial to the forces scattering them from a helicopter or posting them on walls. The…

>algorithms are too effective How effective are they? Just because social media keeps promoting people who promote those ideas doesn't mean they're actually widely and strongly held. If you really care about misinformation, you'd be more worried about Islam which is explicitly sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, anti-science, and supremacist and those beliefs aren't just written in a book somewhere, they're held by mos…

This is one of the most shallow and outright racist comments I've ever seen on this site.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#150

Post by olefoo »

This is all the result of confusing 1st amendment rights with the right to access the audience that gathers at a particular URL.

What Taibbi is asking for is that the guy who tells you that drinking rat poison is good for you should be allowed an audience and that even putting a warning alongside the video would be an infringement on his rights.

Looking at the comments here I have to conclude that HN is no longer on board critical thinking much less common sense.

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