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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#51

Post by grawprog »

>One of the most critical to-do items for the American democracy movement over the next four years will be to more effectively counter domestic anti-democracy disinformation. If possible, it should be done on both the supply and demand sides. We can't ignore this issue any longer.

Hmmm...

I can think of some historical examples where governments used rhetoric oddly reminiscent of that rhetoric spoken by the ex-cia officer that tried to run for president the quote's taken from.

Germany during the 1930's

The Soviet Union during the 1920's...well...most of time existing I guess

Cambodia in the 1970's

China....currently

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#52

Post by tomohawk »

hobs wrote: post #7
tomohawk wrote: post #3

It's crazy what's getting banned. If you believe in science, then you believe that experts and authorities can be wrong, and likely are wrong about some things. You believe that it is important to question those beliefs. What youtube is doing is against science. If you believe in liberty, then you know that more than one thing can be right at the same time. That there is more than one way to do things. What youtube i…

If you believe in science, you also believe that things can be proven wrong, and that repeating wrong things can influence people especially if you have the power to amplify your voice with money. If you believe in liberty, you believe in the liberty of a set of an individuals (a company) to do what they damn well please with their platform.

Science does not talk about right or wrong. It talks about things that are falsifiable.

If there is an idea that so far has not been falsified, it becomes the established scientific fact.

However, someone else may come up with a better idea. Do we prevent them from talking about it or collaborating with people? It may take some time and lots of communication and collaboration to get to the bottom of it. Years or even decades. Do we ban them from youtube in the interrim?

Youtube can do what they please, but what they are doing is against liberty, against science, and it is un-american.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#53

Post by swiley »

jasode wrote: post #48
swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

>Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked. Yes but the only "free speech" that's realistically able to be implemented is freedom of speech without fear of the government putting you jail for criticizing the government. The other idealism of free speech implemented by commercial businesses is not possible because we (the collective "we") won't allow it to happen. There is no broadcasting medium (including we…

Apple specifically designed their platform for censorship. That's why so many people hate it.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#54

Post by tibbydudeza »

Democracy will eventually die.

“In sum, the majority of Americans are generally unable to understand or value democratic culture, institutions, practices or citizenship in the manner required”.

“To the degree to which they are required to do so, they will interpret what is demanded of them in distorting and inadequate ways. As a result they will interact and communicate in ways that undermine the functioning of democratic institutions and the meaning of democratic practices and values.”

https://escholarship.org/content/qt8806z01m/qt8806z01m_noSpl...

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#55

Post by leetcrew »

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #16

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

right, in principle there is nothing wrong (imo, at least) with a private company deciding what can/cannot be said on its online properties. we might, as individuals, pressure a company to change it's moderation policy, but we should not seek to outlaw moderation.

of course, this doesn't work so well in practice when all the viable platforms are controlled by a few huge companies that are more or less ideologically aligned. in my view, this is more of an antitrust issue than a freedom of speech issue. moderation on social media would be a non-issue if there were a reasonable range of platforms to choose from. hateful and/or misleading content would also be far less impactful if uploading a single video to the youtube didn't have the potential of reaching an enormous audience.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#56

Post by Spartan-S63 »

nprz wrote: post #49
Spartan-S63 wrote: post #16

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

Do you think payment processors and ISPs should be able to deny service to customers for any arbitrary reason as well?

Isn't that part of what's critical to have a free market? Sure, there are market inefficiencies when you get to the level that trusts and monopolies exist, don't get me wrong.

Rather than patch the symptoms of the problem, attack the root cause: If companies are acting anticompetitively, stimulate competition in the marketplace. If companies are allowed to make arbitrary decisions (which they should in a free-enough market), seek alternatives, such as government enterprises.

If folks don't like payment processors denying payment or ISPs denying service, seek forming a government enterprise that _can't_ deny service to any citizen.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#57

Post by renewiltord »

Well, the problem is that there are all these intertwined concepts so that for the most part we have:¹

* We want individuals to be able to express themselves so long as they are not explicitly deceiving people or hurting them

* We believe groups of individuals should have the freedoms individuals do

* We believe that individuals whose sole purpose is to act to provide a service to individuals expressing shouldn't be liable for the expression under some conditions. e.g. if I let you rent my sound equipment, I shouldn't be liable because you use it to call for violence against some dude and likewise for online platforms provided they take some reasonable measures

* We believe that picking and choosing what people can use your platform to express is expression in itself, but sometimes you are obligated to suppress some expression

So YouTube is one of these platforms. They should be allowed to pick and choose what people can use them to express because that's a freedom one person has, and therefore that they have as a group of people who individually have it. So the defence rests on it being expression.

However, the defence for them not being liable for expression on their platform is that they're "just the platform". By choosing not to enforce on other things and choosing to enforce on these things they're not "just the platform" - the expression they permit is their expression.

It's a bit hazy, but it feels to me like you forfeit some of your "just a platform" defence when you exercise your "it's my right to expression" defence. Morally, of course, not legally. IANAL and this isn't a court so who gives a damn about the law on its own.

¹ If you don't hold these beliefs, then you're not in the audience for the comment. Skip safely.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#58

Post by Spartan-S63 »

leetcrew wrote: post #55
Spartan-S63 wrote: post #16

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

right, in principle there is nothing wrong (imo, at least) with a private company deciding what can/cannot be said on its online properties. we might, as individuals, pressure a company to change it's moderation policy, but we should not seek to outlaw moderation. of course, this doesn't work so well in practice when all the viable platforms are controlled by a few huge companies that are more or less ideologically a…

I don't disagree with this. It is a monopoly problem. However, what this article suggests and a lot of other solutions suggest is patching the symptom and not getting to the root of the problem. We've lost our stomach for stimulating competitive marketplaces and forgotten that a sufficiently competitive market will settle on an optimal outcome. That does mean regulation is required and it does mean that breakups are required. That's treating the root cause and not just the symptom.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#59

Post by keepper »

Vomzor wrote: post #26
keepper wrote: post #13

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -Isaac Asimov or more to the point "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Colbert You're not entitled to be heard.…

> Reality has a well-known liberal bias Except when it comes to nuclear, GMO, gender science, nature vs nurture, I'm sure there are other things I'm not remembering right now.

Thank you for making my point. Not sure why I'm replying, as its wholely offtopic

- Nuclear, i think you should read up why people are against it. ( spoiler, it isn't the science... but maybe you should think about who can do it effectively vs the potential risks of doing it wrong... or you know, the imbalance of global power when only a few countries could generate.. well, power )

- GMO, again, same point above. "Sure you can have this great crop, no seeds". Again, GMO per say isn't bad, its the implementation that's bad.

- Gender science. Stop worrying about what other people do with their life, worry about your life my fellow human.

- Nature vs nurture. Sure, an argument that goes back B.C., and now you think this is a conservative vs liberal? Wait, is this Paleo conservatism? lol

Again, not even relating to the argument at hand. There's no "true" side in any of these, as two of them are well, not science. And the other two, will continue to evolve with science. But nice try :)

Oh... and thank you for taking the quote of a comedian ( and my quip, so seriously). Any arguments about the first one?

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#60

Post by bcheung »

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #16

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

I think there needs to be updated thought leadership on what qualifies as "common carrier" and what doesn't.

Whether gov't or private, if a platform is primarily promoted as an open communication channel then I think that some, if not all, aspects of "common carrier" laws should apply.

Social media platforms would not have the trust and would not have been adopted as quickly if they started off censoring as much as they do now. In that regard, they presented themselves as open and impartial, then shifted once they achieved sufficient critical mass.

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