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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#171

Post by fy20 »

pjmlp wrote: post #159
oaiey wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft selling Windows to DELL, HP, ... they will not start writing their own operating system. And at that point the same effect will start like it did with Microsoft/Intel/computer manufacturer. If Microsoft however succeed with their Surfaces like Apples does .. than maybe we are screwed. Luckily, they do not.

They do actually. Outside Apple heavens like US, Windows tablets and 2-1 laptops are the to go option, as Google keeps failing to move the Android ecosystem beyond phone apps on bigger screen.

I think OP was referring to Microsoft's hardware brand Surface, not OEM Windows installs.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#172

Post by oaiey »

fy20 wrote: post #171
pjmlp wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do actually. Outside Apple heavens like US, Windows tablets and 2-1 laptops are the to go option, as Google keeps failing to move the Android ecosystem beyond phone apps on bigger screen.

I think OP was referring to Microsoft's hardware brand Surface, not OEM Windows installs.

Yes ;)

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#173

Post by iagovar »

guytv wrote: post #145
pjmlp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on HN bubble does it matter. Apple devices are out of budget for most countries, and they only own 10% of the worldwide market share in computing. Outside desktop, Android owns the mobile market. Really, it is just US analysts going crazy with M1.

What's true to the US and HN "bubble" right now, will be the norm for the rest of the world a few years from now. no?

It depends on the price. Apple products are rather expensive, and if you're poor you may not understand interoperability but you can see its effects.

I'm very far from SV salaries for example, and although I can afford an Iphone or Imac, It's just a dangerous slope for my pockets.

There are many countries poorer than mine.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#174

Post by buran77 »

Hamuko wrote: post #139
ForHackernews wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if desktop ARM becomes mainstream things could settle fairly quickly. It's less of a technical problem and more of a "why bother?" problem. This is exactly right, but I fear the incentives have changed and we'll never again see something like the x86/IBM-compatible/Wintel world of "standard" inter-compatible systems. As you say, it's a "why bother?" problem, and no manufacturer will want to bother: Apple has no int…

> Apple has no interest in making it easy to run other OSes I'm not convinced that this is necessarily true. They advertised running Linux VMs during their presentation, they made a tool specifically for installing Windows on Macs and they even recently stated how Windows on ARM Macs is really up to Microsoft. If you could run Windows on an M1 Mac, it'd really turn it into a powerful and power-efficient "do-it-all" m…

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another.

Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable, not "interlayerable". You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC that only runs a specific OS and the only way to run anything else is on top of that like an app. You'd think "ridiculous".

Today having a device that runs as sealed monolith both HW and SW wise, and all you can do is run stuff on top of that without the ability to replace anything is considered a good sign. Tells you where we're going.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#175

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

>I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC

I think that ship has long sailed as we failed to treat smartphones as handheld computers and subject the smartphone/OS manufacturers to the same scrutiny as computer/OS manufacturers.

This is a missed opportunity especially to those countries where smartphones are the first computer to majority of the population, now their computing can be held hostage by couple of companies just like their data.

Now computers with only manufacturer approved OS, only manufacturer approved software (even content?), arbitrary security updates/ OS upgrade cycle is already becoming a reality.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#176

Post by iagovar »

shawnz wrote: post #169
pjmlp wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple lowers their prices, maybe.

The cheapest M1 devices are already cheaper than equivalently spec'd devices from competitors, like the Surface Pro X. I think it is safe to assume they will only get cheaper from their launch-day prices.

Being cheaper than similar specs is not enough, you have to have cheap devices and apple does not.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#177

Post by Hamuko »

buran77 wrote: post #174
Hamuko wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has no interest in making it easy to run other OSes I'm not convinced that this is necessarily true. They advertised running Linux VMs during their presentation, they made a tool specifically for installing Windows on Macs and they even recently stated how Windows on ARM Macs is really up to Microsoft. If you could run Windows on an M1 Mac, it'd really turn it into a powerful and power-efficient "do-it-all" m…

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another. Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable , not "interlayerable" . You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC…

Bootcamp is not virtualization, so your point is moot.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#178

Post by shawnz »

iagovar wrote: post #176
shawnz wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheapest M1 devices are already cheaper than equivalently spec'd devices from competitors, like the Surface Pro X. I think it is safe to assume they will only get cheaper from their launch-day prices.

Being cheaper than similar specs is not enough, you have to have cheap devices and apple does not.

Cheap is relative. Right now their M1 devices are objectively the cheapest practical ARM64 workstation products on the market. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to maintain that lead for a while as costs come down for ARM64 workstations in general. And I think it is reasonable to expect that ARM64 platforms will eventually be cheaper than x86 ones.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#179

Post by iagovar »

shawnz wrote: post #178
iagovar wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being cheaper than similar specs is not enough, you have to have cheap devices and apple does not.

Cheap is relative. Right now their M1 devices are objectively the cheapest practical ARM64 workstation products on the market. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to maintain that lead for a while as costs come down for ARM64 workstations in general. And I think it is reasonable to expect that ARM64 platforms will eventually be cheaper than x86 ones.

Cheap is not that relative when you're poor. When your making an effort to buy an $400 laptop Apple is out of the equation.

I know because I've been in that place.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#180

Post by AsyncAwait »

Hamuko wrote: post #177
buran77 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course but obviously they don't and probably will never allow you to replace MacOS, rather just to run something else on top of it in one form or another. Notably the PC standard meant things were interchangeable , not "interlayerable" . You picked a CPU, you picked an OS, you did not have to emulate or virtualize whatever you wanted on top of what was imposed on you. Imagine that 30 years ago someone pitched a PC…

Bootcamp is not virtualization, so your point is moot.

Bootcamp doesn't run on ARM Macs so your point is moot.
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