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We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

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Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#171
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean Religion is banned in France? I'm curious about what sort of twisted broad exaggeration and misunderstanding do you have to believe to drop something like that?

To be fair, the NYT's reporting of Macron's limited and perfectly reasonable attempts to combat rampant fundamentalism might give an uninformed reader a reason to believe he was some authoritarian nutjob. But that's yet another symptom of the NYT's habit of lashing out at any perspective other than their very limited one.

Yeah, it's strange that Americans on the whole are not well versed in what secualrism means.

They think it's some sort state-enforced communist atheism or some anti-religious-freedom agenda, without understanding the pains the country went through in the past 300 years (sometimes to the brink of civil war) to remove religion from the State and ensure religious freedom and equality for all.

For most, religion is a personal matter. It starts becoming an issue when it is used as a political ideology that aims to destabilise the State.

It happened before with Catholicism and there are now some fringe Islamist movements that want the same.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#172

I'm struggling to see the argument here. Facebook is a very large company, and is taking large amount of advertiser cash. That is true. That money would otherwise go to publishers (possibly true, although I suspect it would go to google.) What the author fails to back up is the either facebook/democracy argument. facebook could attempt to editorialise all content, to give a specific bias to the news feed. But I don't…

"Is Facebook a publisher or just a platform that connects people?"

That's exactly the core question in legal cases so far. If it's recognized as a publisher, it can be held accountable for it's editorial decisions. If it's just a platform, that accountability is delegated to the people posting on that platform.

The big issue is that Facebook will purport to be one or the other depending on the context. As a publisher, for instance, it's protected by free speech rights. As a neutral platform, it can deny that it disrupts the news industry.

This is is exactly what has happened thus far. Facebook says A before Congress, and B in court cases. [1]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/02/facebook-...

> What the author fails to back up is the either facebook/democracy argument.

Yes, the article falls short.

So, the question to ask is this: "How does FB even get away with this chameleon like behavior all these years?" and the answer is: careful exploitation of the legal framework.

An innate consequence of a democracy - to be more specific, any self-governing society with a majority vote - is that the process of law making are governed through models as described in game theory. Laws aren't "designed" and decreed in isolation of one another, they are often the result of bargaining, negotiations and compromise. Laws are also written by multiple representatives who often landed their chairs through complex power dynamics with their constituencies, interest groups and so on.

So, unless you're willing to dismiss democracy for a technocracy, the legal framework will never truly be "engineered" towards some ideal equilibrium through the eyes of experts. In a democracy, law making will always be a "work in progress" that represents the state of a public debate.

Facebook isn't a "political institution" as it is described in the article. At least, not in the formal sense of the word. But it is very much a participant in the same public debate that shapes law making. And it will unscrupuously use the flaws in the legal system to its own advantage as a private actor.

This leads to a big question: "How do other participants in a democracy feel about Facebook doing this?" This a moral question, though, and it is based on value attribution. So, the result is many different answers that don't easily converge into a compromise either.

Paradoxically, it's this disparity in opinions within the public debate that allows Facebook to keep doing what it does without being hindered.

> I don't think facebook is the antithesis of democracy.

Personally, I think that Facebook does hold a shared, moral responsibility.

Suppose your parents aren't at a home and you decide to host a party. People flock to your house. Not just your friends, but also friends of friends. And maybe people you don't really know. Including people who do not really care about blasting loud music at night, or even vandalizing cars two streets down the road.

You might think "it's not my responsibility how others behave", but you will def have angry neighbours coming down at you over you not minding who came through your door that night.

Facebook's design, architecture, principles,... allow anyone to partake in the party, but they don't provide the proper affordances to watch the door - e.g. moderation, archiving and findability of posted content,... - and they don't provide it either for private moderation, or public law enforcement.

By extension, news publishers do make the same cardinal sin by putting a "comments section" below any and all news articles without proper moderation.

The Web isn't an affair of a few million early adopters anymore. It's frequented by billions today. And this dynamic brings different, very complex moral questions that can't be readily be answered with "people are responsible enough, they will figure it out for themselves."

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#173
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a small number That's not correct. There were staggering numbers of them. In 1900 there were 15 English language daily newspapers in New York City alone. The problem with Facebook is monopolization. It's different when you have a ton of places that share information, and some of them are biased in one direction or another, versus when you have just one, and that one actively works to prevent other options from emer…

There are far more news sources available today than in the 20th century. Not only can I read local newspapers and magazines from all over the world, which wasn’t easy to do before the internet, but also there are tons of new digital-only publications and millions of blogs. In the 1990s in the US, before the internet took off, most people had access to one local paper (two in some cases), maybe an a few local magazin…

There is a current federal legal complaint against Facebook with exacting detail about their anti-competitive practices, we don't need to speculate on this one. There are literally hundreds of numbered paragraphs each with a specific allegation of anti-competitive behavior.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#174

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

> Not that much has changed...

Facebook is also a public forum. Normal folks talk about things they care about, including politics, on social media. Normal folks did not peer-to-peer discuss the sinking of The Maine in the pages of The New York Journal. So there was never the issue of The New York Journal promoting, hiding, or editorializing that peer-to-peer speech.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#175

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

> The best and only way to defend and nurture it is education. Teach people to think for themselves, critical reading,logic and analysis. This is the best inoculation against totalitarianism.

I agree that education is one of the best ways to combat this problem. I don't necessarily agree it's the best one.

> Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment.

There's no reason why middle grounds don't exist. We can guarantee Free Speech without everyone having access to Instagram, FB, Twitter...

I bet most of the problems could be solved by making these platforms pay to use. Moderation loads would get reduced significantly. Excessive tracking would stop (because now ads are way harder to justify). Accounts would NEED to be somewhat verified by a payment, which makes it harder for trolls/manipulators/abusers of the platform to hide new accounts etc.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#176

In an earlier era, people's opinions were shaped by a small number of newspapers and newscasts. Some of these old media were so biased and agenda driven that they caused wars. Not that much has changed, except that people now rely on centralized, AI-driven funnels of information and entertainment. Democracy has always been fragile, barely functional, easily corrupted, warped by money. The best and only way to defend…

I have the same inclinations as you. I see there are various kinds of bias from different sources, and that you have to be able to think critically in order to maintain some sort of perspective. I also think that we need a bunch of different perspectives, so in that way it's good there's a lot of people talking.

But we also live in a world that is more educated than ever, and a lot of those people who went to school can't figure out why they should believe in the moon landings, or dinosaurs. How often you do come across a posting from a friend who thinks the virus isn't real? You sat in a room with people like this for over 10 years. Did you think they would someday be able to think for themselves? I had hoped for that.

I'm starting to think that education as the answer might just be a naive point of view, but I'm also not desirous of a world where we tell adults what they're supposed to think.

Rock and a hard place.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. The hallmarks of a whole lot of restricted speech. That was the cornerstone of their power dominance since they had perfect and efficient legal and social mechanisms to not just undermine, but arrest and disappear any opposition. Not exactly regiemes know for their humanitarian activities.

Everyone knows about the Nazis and Soviets but that’s not following through my point. You need to think a little beyond famous example of mass murdering regimes that also were against speech and causally link the speech restriction to the mass murder. As you can do with the Myanmar regime’s genocide and their use of Facebook. Basically authoritarian regimes restrict speech to maintain control but don’t necessarily co…

Except everyone recognizes that their suppression of speech was a major contributor to their dominance. I dont understand how this is difficult to follow. Opposition speech is the basic cornerstone of freedom of speech. Those in power cannot retaliate against you if you criticize their actions on whatever grounds whether its scientific, moral or economic. If you're in power and say "we need to kill off all stamp collectors to create a better society" then kill/torture/imprison anyone who in turn disagrees with you. Yes, you dont neccesarily get govs that kill off folks in non-free speech societies. The average person also doesn't murder either, we still make it illegal to kill others. You put in place these kinds of laws to create a deterrent or blockade against a ruling body from easily crushing opposition. How in the hell this is difficult to comprehend only means your history knowledge comes from pop culture articles instead of unbiased books. Democratic and republic forms of government are built on concepts to limit total government power and to place checks and balances on those in power. While we can argue the hows to do so, which are typically productive when the initial common ground is accepted, the general consensus after you know history from at least the Magna Carta days shows that those in power need limits. Freedom of speech is one of those mechanisms to limit those in power in a relatively fair way because it is a two way street. You cant shush the opposition, you cant shush those in power. The idea is the people, after hearing both sides, can make a generally good decision. Thats a whole other bag or worms. Anyways, social media has been a huge problem in becoming more one sided in many, many debates. But social media and Facebook are not freedom of speech. The ideal that the silicon valley crowd are a higher form of "for the people, by the people" has been another problem to this mess. They're rich fucks that alter "freedom of speech" by letting certain folks talk and then shushing the other side by burying their argument or just kicking them off. That's a one way street. Free speech is a two way street. They're saying they're agendaless but allow certain ideals to flourish and choke out the others. This ends up having backfiring effect due to creating a giant echo chamber then having the other groups go into their own echo chambers. They're all amplifying to stupid degrees instead of everyone being on the same forum to have a discussion. The social media companies are just that, companies. Zuckerberg and the other cunts are just in it for the money, not for social good. Since their business model was built on a house of cards chock full of debt and investment, they're tied to take large sums of money from whoever's willing to offer it.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#178

This person is confusing ranked newsfeeds with free speech. Ranked newsfeeds are the actual poison, because they are their own form of censorship and amplification for exploitative purposes. It’s fine if someone says something horrible or false on the internet, it’s not fine if a ranked newsfeed amplifies that message to millions of people because it’s engaging. This free speech or not argument is a complete straw ma…

I don't understand the obsession some people have with ranked newsfeeds. I don't see what's wrong with showing people content they want. What content that is always depends on the user themselves. If they've liked a lot of horrible stuff before, they'll get more horrible stuff, if they've liked a lot of thoughtful stuff before, they'll get more thoughtful stuff.

> I don't see what's wrong with showing people content they want.

Showing them what who wants? The users? That’s be great, but today they are trained to show what the company wants, and the company wants to keep you on the site as long as possible to generate ad clicks.

It’s designed for making you spiral into a topic.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#179
post #116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but in france display of religious symbols (such as wearing a cross) is banned in public places That is not true; you're free to have religious symbols in public places. What you cannot do is wear them ostensibly if you're acting as an official for a public service . Teacher ? no cross/kippa/etc. while you're teaching. Cop ? same. Mayor in the process of marrying a couple ? same again. Parent helping teachers durin…

And there's the ban on burqa and niqab. In public places. You conveniently did not mention that.

You're right, should've mentioned it. And I for one never gave much credit to the face covering excuse - that ban was meant to attack Islam.

Re: We can have democracy or we can have Facebook

#180
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that's the definition, why not clearly say that instead of playing this "let others guess what your definition is" game? > Yes, assault weapons are a different category, legally and technically, from semi-automatic weapons What's the clear legal definition of an assault weapon? E.g. as referenced elsewhere in the comments here, the federal assault weapons ban clearly talked about "semi-automatic assault…

I think I did clearly say that; what's unclear? The federal assault ban covers fully automatic weapons, not semi-automatic. Here's a pretty good explanation of the differences. https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/oct/02/difference-be...

From what I understand, you claim there is a clear legal category of "assault weapon" you base the definition on. So where is that defined? Your link only talks about fully- vs semi-automatic, the NFA linked from there doesn't use the term, ...

Whereas past laws that used the term clearly considered it not to be fully-automatic only. E.g. the law that's commonly known as the "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" (1994-2008) literally regulated "semiautomatic assault weapons", a category which doesn't make any sense if you insist that assault weapons always are fully-automatic. So what's changed that you now can insist that including semi-automatics doesn't make sense? I won't claim I know all relevant legislation, but it seems pretty obvious that not that long ago, it wasn't as clear-cut as you present it.

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