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Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

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Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#21

Post by giantg2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #20
giantg2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians have their own party separate from Republicans. I suppose some Republicans lean towards libertarian ideals.

> Libertarians have their own party separate from Republicans. Yes, pretty much every conceivable ideology in the US [0] has its own party (or more than one!) distinct from the two major parties for those adherents who don’t understand the futility of third parties under normal circumstances in the US electoral system, or who care more about ideological purity of association than acheiving policy goals through the po…

"...acheiving policy goals through the political system"

Some of the roadblocks we face now are the result of our two party system.

But getting back to the actual question... what is the differentiating topics between a trump supporting conservative and a non-trump supporting conservative?

The point I was trying to make with the question is that you could potentially find a trump supporting conservative and non-trump supporting conservative that share the same opinion on a specific issue. These theoretical classifications (in some cases built on stereotypes) really aren't helping anything. For example, you could have a trump supporter in any of the categories you mentioned.

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#24

Post by chaganated »

tomcam wrote: post #22
chaganated wrote: post #2

Logocentrism is a dead end. If you want to see the world as a conservative would, take up weightlifting and start your own business.

Cerno! What are you doing here?

If this is the guy you're talking about (https://twitter.com/Cernovich), I believe Klages and Rippetoe beat him to the punch, and exceedingly so. Will definitely check him out though!

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#25

Post by knaq »

giantg2 wrote: post #18
knaq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive. Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: 1. religious 2. business (likes outsourcing and unlimited immigration to drive down wages) 3. pro-America They often hate each other. The first two groups are usually unwilling to admit that Trump has been the best president ever.

Do you have any examples of your hate comment? Also, do you have an answer to my question about which topics would be different between trump supporting and non-trump supporting conservatives? I know trump supporters who could fit all three of these categories. Not to mention there are probably other categories and people who fit into multiple categories.

The pro-America types want tariffs and less immigration. The business types disagree strongly.

The religious types have had complaints about LGBT. Again, the business types disagree strongly.

So there you have the business types being almost libertarian, fighting against the rest of the party. They won't get tossed out because they bring most of the money.

Sometimes the religious and pro-America types are at odds over immigration. Mormons and Catholics are particularly fond of immigration.

Supporting Trump or not is partly a matter of priority. The business types more concerned with regulations will support Trump. The ones trying to run factories in America will support Trump, but the ones trying to outsource production won't. Mormons see that Trump made the first openly gay appointment (ambassador to Germany) and built over 500 miles of wall, so they aren't too happy despite liking the supreme court appointments.

And yes, there is style. Some people like the smooth-talking political dishonesty that we've had for decades. There is the idea that that is somehow proper. Trump fans hate that stuff.

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#26

Post by chaganated »

dragonwriter wrote: post #15
knaq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive. Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: 1. religious 2. business (likes outsourcing and unlimited immigration to drive down wages) 3. pro-America They often hate each other. The first two groups are usually unwilling to admit that Trump has been the best president ever.

> By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive No, they aren’t. A conservative is an anti-progressive. (Classically, an anti-liberal, but that’s less clear these days, because while classical liberalism was a progressive position for its time of origin, “liberal” has been overloaded to refer to defense of the status quo elites established by the success of classical liberalism and continued progress in…

Perfect logocentrism example! That dragonwriter chose to split-hairs a little more finely doesn't make this statement into an improvement, or even a clarification, since the splits are (and always will be) a projection of the splitter's perspective, value-system, and goals.

Speak with a member of one of dragonwriter's phyla, and listen while the hair-splitting continues. Expose this 2nd-order hair-splitting to someone more aloof, and they will see it as an argument between insane people.

In troubled times, we have to stifle the narcissism of small differences, make a few concessions, and pick a side. knaq was close enough to begin with:

religious: 1 business: 2, 3 pro-america: 4, 5

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#27

Post by chaganated »

chaganated wrote: post #26
dragonwriter wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive No, they aren’t. A conservative is an anti-progressive. (Classically, an anti-liberal, but that’s less clear these days, because while classical liberalism was a progressive position for its time of origin, “liberal” has been overloaded to refer to defense of the status quo elites established by the success of classical liberalism and continued progress in…

Perfect logocentrism example! That dragonwriter chose to split-hairs a little more finely doesn't make this statement into an improvement, or even a clarification, since the splits are (and always will be) a projection of the splitter's perspective, value-system, and goals. Speak with a member of one of dragonwriter's phyla, and listen while the hair-splitting continues. Expose this 2nd-order hair-splitting to someon…

edit: dragonwriter's phyla of republicans, that is

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#28

Post by knaq »

decafninja wrote: post #9

My dad is the conservative I can do what you describe with. (Hopefully the following doesn't go against any politics rules...) However he despises Trump/Trumpism and so sat out the 2016 election and voted against Trump in 2020. So along a similar vein to what you're looking for, I'd actually like to have a civilized, respectful, discussion with a Trump supporter (not merely just a conservative), since my dad doesn't…

I think at this point, you can say he is not conservative by the typical meaning. What happened? By mid-2017 every American should have loved Trump. (understandable to have doubt before then) Was your dad just following the anti-Trump news sources like Fox, Drudge Report, and Facebook? (nothing like Breitbart, OANN, RSBN, or thedonald.win) Did he have a personal conflict of interest, such as a job outsourcing American jobs?

Re: Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

#29

Post by throwaway0b1 »

poldisc wrote: post #11

This is a good idea. Avenues for honest political discussion are sorely missing. I'm personally more libertarian than conservative but I can defend some of the latter's viewpoints. To anyone interested, send something to politicaldiscussion at protonmail.com and I'll get a message board set up.

Is this happening? (Just wondering because of discussion elsewhere in this thread.)
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