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FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

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Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#651
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it that HN is all about minimal design, but the need for the parent post (in this and other threads) is a sign that the UI could be improved in this aspect.

It is a courtesy, there is no real need for the post; the "More" link is quite discoverable. I don't think this extremely minor issue warrants cluttering the UI with additional "page 1 2 3 ..." links at the top.

> there is no real need for the post; the "More" link is quite discoverable.

No its not atleast for me. I just miss it and looks like lot of others miss it as well.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#652

Honestly, while I have my doubts about this succeeding, it nevertheless feels like the big tech suit most likely to succeed. Amazon promoting its own brands isn't much different from a supermarket offering its own brand items. Apple isn't a monopoly in phones because of Android. And Google's search is so inherently tied to selling ads as a business model that separating them is a difficult argument -- plus search com…

Amazon promoting its own brands isn't much different from a supermarket offering its own brand items. Amazon promoting its own brands is completely different from a supermarket offering its own brand items. You're confusing a bazaar with a retail store; the two are nothing alike legally or economically. The supermarket pays for everything on its store shelves (except, rarely, for certain new products on a consignment…

> it uses its access to their sales data to come up with its own competing products

Why do you think physical retailers are not doing the same thing?

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way to provide access to the social graph in a privacy preserving way. It's not okay to allow a third party to access the data your friends have shared with you without your friends consenting. Unencumbered API access to the social graph is exactly what led to the Cambridge Analytica scandal, and promising to restrict API access was part of Facebook's settlement with the FTC.

> It's not okay to allow a third party to access the data your friends have shared with you without your friends consenting. Why? If they shared it with me, that should mean they trust me to decide to whom I delegate the access no? I could as well just screenshot it and post it to twitter, what does make the social graph so special?

I was thinking the same thing. How many of us blindly save contact data to our phones or other PIM software, then back it up online to a Google, Apple, or Samsung service? Do they need my contacts' consent? If I were to ask my friends, "Is it okay if I back up your contact informarion to Samsung's online service?" they would think I was weird for asking.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#654
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but FB are hated by both left and right (for entirely different reasons), so this is likely to actually go ahead. The notion that FB increase ad prices by increasing the supply of ads is completely insane though, and I hope that's a misunderstanding by the parent poster. FB/IG have an auction-based ads system, which means that you pay what other advertisers think the user is worth, rather than what you think the…

Hi I was referring to the cost of advertising for users not advertisers. Sure advertisers pay a cost based on an auction system which is subject to laws of supply and demand. However the cost that users pay for engaging on the platform is the use of their data. So I guess what I meant by aggressively increase the “price” of advertising was referring to the hidden cost of Facebook being able to serve adverts in the fi…

> As others have pointed out, anti-monopoly legislation os largely about preventing firms from abusing monopoly power to increase prices. If you consider the cost of using a social network to be the data the user provides, then the more data the user gives up to the use the social network, the higher the cost.

Unfortunately this is a wildly speculative argument, which is unlikely to find favour with regulators in this case.

Even if it weren't speculative, how do you define the value of data? Is it by bits and bytes, or as the expected lift from incorporating it into a model? If I improve FB's/Google's ad models, do I increase the cost of all of their users? That seems ludicrous to me, but maybe that seems fine to you.

> However the cost that users pay for engaging on the platform is the use of their data. So I guess what I meant by aggressively increase the “price” of advertising was referring to the hidden cost of Facebook being able to serve adverts in the first place.

This is a trade. You and I may think this is a poor trade, but it's one that many, many users make (and like) daily. In no sense is it a cost.

Additionally, if (hypothetically) one chooses to make advertising-supported websites illegal, then that leads to FB (and Google) shutting down, which I don't see as a net positive for the world. (Certainly most of their users wouldn't think so).

> By purchasing Instagram and WhatsApp, at the time the two biggest threats to engagement on Facebook the website, Facebook the company are able to coalesce the three networks, making stickiness stronger, making it easier to raise prices (consumption of user data in exchange for adverts) and thereby abusing a monopoly position.

So I don't agree with your argument about prices, so I'm not going to engage with it further (if you need to explain what a standard term means in the context of your argument, that's normally a warning sign).

However, IG had 20mn users when it got acquired. The consensus here was that it was a terrible idea and that FB would shut it down. We're now in a world where it has 1bn users and mints money for FB. Now, it definitely looks like FB acted badly.

But consider the alternative. FB are blocked from buying IG, so IG need to set up a sales team, an adevertising method and epxand globally. None of these things are cheap or trivial. There does exist a world where IG competes on a level-playing field independently, but I would argue that at least 80% of the time, this hypothetical leads to IG either under-performing or flaming out.

And to be fair, at the time of the IG purchase, the biggest threat to Facebook was mobile (once upon a time, FB had no ads on mobile).

Whatsapp again, should have been stopped by the EU, but there were little to no competition concerns raised within the US based on that acquisition, as nobody in the US used Whatsapp at the time.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article 1, §9 specifically forbids the Congress from passing any ex post facto laws, and §10. does the same for the states. Since the FTC already gave consent the first time around, this hinges on whether the FTC as an independent agency is considered a proxy for Congress. Note that the attorney generals' separate suit does not have this concern.

Not a lawyer question: Does that prevent Congress from passing laws criminalizing ongoing behavior by corporations, or just from prosecuting acts from before the law was passed?

Not a lawyer answer: the latter. Note, though, that a law criminalizing behavior specific to one person or corporation could be considered a bill of attainder, which is prohibited by the same clauses in the constitution.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#656

I feel like instead of pushing for the companies to separate, congress should pass laws mandating [adversarial interoperability]( https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interopera... ). Then the data (including the social graph) really would belong to the users, and facebook would have to compete with multiple other “social network clients” that would rapidly emerge. Facebook would lose some monopoly profi…

Good Idea ... It solves the critical problem of turning people into products.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#657
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an action that could have profoundly disruptive effect If FB is doing anti-competitive things than disruption is needed. It's not meant to be comfortable. Companies are really good at learning the playing field and then gaming it for their benefits. Tweaks to laws are often easy to work around. Disruption that stops an illegal monopoly is going to be uncomfortable. Especially at first. But, it opens the doo…

But the product provides real value to real people today, why disrupt this? Also weren't these companies free to not accept an acquisition?

Because move fast and brake things? Disruption good?

No, seriously, modern tech companies are an anti-trust challenge that was not truely forseen in existing anti-trust laws. That governments are now trying to find answers is a good thing.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon promoting its own brands isn't much different from a supermarket offering its own brand items. Amazon promoting its own brands is completely different from a supermarket offering its own brand items. You're confusing a bazaar with a retail store; the two are nothing alike legally or economically. The supermarket pays for everything on its store shelves (except, rarely, for certain new products on a consignment…

Thank you. This is the first time I've seen my thoughts on this explained so clearly. This is something I felt was unfair but couldn't quite pare it down in a succinct argument like that. It just feels so obvious. What leads someone as smart as Bezos to ignore this line of reasoning? Even if it turns out that it's not "illegal," I feel like deep down, people inside the company just know what they're doing is slimy, o…

It’s not accurate though (see other comments). The one I’m amazed by is the assertion that “ The supermarket pays for everything on its store shelves (except, rarely, for certain new products on a consignment basis in which case it only sales for units actually sold)” which is leaving a lot of money off the table

Supermarkets might pay for the product, but Kellogg’s, Budweiser, etc pay them for shelf space, eye level, end of aisle placement, etc. there is a dozen ways they make money off the sellers. Supermarkets don’t just pay for product as a textbook marketplace

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you frankly have no clue. Let me clue you in on a few facts. Retail stores are not paying upfront. Name a single major retailer that does this. I've yet to hear of a single one doing this. Amazon is a bookstore. Go to any other bookstore or even distributor, and ask how quickly folks get paid who sell into their market. These folks drag the absolute HELL out of payment. And yes, the local bookstore can return the…

Retail stores are not paying upfront. Name a single major retailer that does this. I've yet to hear of a single one doing this. I don't claim that the companies "pay upfront" because that's not how B2B invoicing works. Companies pay invoices on a net-terms basis (ranging between 30 and 180 days after the underlying good or service is provided or received). But they have signed the legal contract agreeing to pay befor…

“30 and 180 days after the underlying good or service is provided or received” + “But once you have established that record of sales, they buy future inventory.”

Means very different for products with a limited shelf life. The cost to “replace items that are selling” doesn’t just cover the risk, it also covers the items actively sitting on the shelves. A store is only buying new items after the old items have sold, so that continues indefinitely. A store is thus better off of if an item stops selling in 1 year than 1 day, as the replacement item is also subsidized.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#660
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were some kind of federal agency, maybe a "trade commission" that could have blocked these mergers when they originally happened ....

Thanks Obama. But seriously, by what rationale would you block the purchase in 2012? Instagram only had 25 million users at the time.

I think that's the point. If it wasn't anticompetitive then, why is it now?
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