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Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

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Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#61

Post by malcolmgreaves »

academicthrow wrote: post #37
warriorstar wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't possibly be for real. You don't know her qualifications, so you assume she doesn't have any. Then you come up with a straw-man of "non-engineers lacking skills" and assign that to her! You're more willing to assign traits you made up to her than look up what she's actually capable of!

If you've been in academia for awhile you've seen this happen time and time again. Student does excellently in undergrad, masters, phd coursework* but when it comes to making real technical contributions, they hit a wall. It was a clever move by her to use her pedigree to pivot into "AI ethics" where the standards for publishing are much lower (as we can see from this draft that was circulated). *Given her background…

> *Given her background/race, we can't actually rule out the possibility that she got carried through the ranks by AA.

The reality is that she hard to work three times as hard as a white man to make it: effort to learn the knowledge, and double effort to overcome the effects of sexism and racism, of which you've perfectly demonstrated.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#62

Post by waihtis »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #49
waihtis wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is intellectual freedom if you have enough cash in the bank to last you a lifetime. Then, feel free to offend anyone with your opinions as you cannot die from starvation.

ah, the "gentleman scientists" of whom we hear so much when learning scientific history.

No room for gentlemen scientists when there are plethoras of people out there who will happily crucify you and negate everything you've achieved if you happen to have the slightest social dent in your image.

To be untouchable be openly degenerate & filthy rich.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#63

Post by ergocoder »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #25
nmfisher wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s abundantly clear that Google was itching to get rid of her. They probably couldn’t believe her luck when she (stupidly) tried to bully them with not just a threat of resignation, but an actual statement of “I will resign on date XXX”. I also don’t believe that Google would have done this for no reason (given her behaviour during the LeCunn incident) so I’m sympathetic towards Google’s conduct. If Gebru had simpl…

I don’t believe anyone has claimed she said “I will resign on date XXX.” The wording I think she and Dean have said she used was “or I will work on a last date” or something. As in “or I’ll work on figuring out what my last date at google will be.”

It's incredibly entitled to think she would be the only person who gets to decide what the last day would be.

Either side can terminate the employment earlier.

I'd assume best intent that she would not go with something like "my last day is a year from now".

Why would if she leave immediately or 14 days later? If she didn't get to wrap up her work, then that's Google's loss.

To be honest, trying to spin this as Google firing her is very very strange. It's a non-issue, and she did throw an ultimatum.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#64

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

totorovirus wrote: post #23

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues? I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some oth…

>Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues?

In general? Yes. When it comes to the snakes FAANG have created biting the hand that feeds on the industry stage? No. I absolutely love to watch their internal dramas spill out for all to see or, if you're smart, take warning from.

>I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some other topics. And Gebru is doing exactly that in Google.

Not in a position to comment on this person's credentials or skills but I don't personally begrudge the type of grifter you're talking about. Most of us are merely trying to optimize for income and they're no different, and their success is a result of poor leadership in companies and/or society.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#65

Post by bra-ket »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #57
bra-ket wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this case had nothing to do with censorship though. It was Gebru' unprofessional conduct - she gave ultimatum to her managers demanding to disclose names of the reviewers who criticized her work or she would resign, and broadcasting emails to entire team literally calling for sabotage. Her behavior fits the definition of 'toxic employee', it was unprofessional by any standard. Here is Jeff Dean's letter sent to the G…

> Here is Jeff Dean's letter sent to the Google Research team with the details of what actually happened: : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f2kYWDXwhzYnq8ebVtuk9CqQ ... You choose to trust the words of the man that did the firing vs. the corroborated stories of dozens of Google Brain researchers that contradict his corporate messaging. Don't take corporate's word as "what happened:" that's about as naive as takin…

>"corroborated" stories of dozens

It's a "boy who cried wolf" for me. I've seen these activists promoting lies to us the entire summer of protests for completely made-up causes. I've seen them distorting facts and pushing misinformation through media. I've also seen them bullying people via social media 'witch hunts', which is happening now with Jeff Dean, Nando de Freitas and whoever stands in their way.

The whole activism movement is toxic and whoever brings it to the workplace.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#66

Post by ergocoder »

totorovirus wrote: post #23

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues? I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some oth…

She is likely fired for her toxicity.

Looking at this Twitter thread between her and Jeff Dean 6 months ago: https://twitter.com/JeffDean/status/1278571537776271360 ...

She was being toxic toward Jeff Dean, who is her manager's manager.

I looked at that tweet, and yikes. I'll never do that to my colleagues.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#67

Post by filmgirlcw »

academicthrow wrote: post #37
warriorstar wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't possibly be for real. You don't know her qualifications, so you assume she doesn't have any. Then you come up with a straw-man of "non-engineers lacking skills" and assign that to her! You're more willing to assign traits you made up to her than look up what she's actually capable of!

If you've been in academia for awhile you've seen this happen time and time again. Student does excellently in undergrad, masters, phd coursework* but when it comes to making real technical contributions, they hit a wall. It was a clever move by her to use her pedigree to pivot into "AI ethics" where the standards for publishing are much lower (as we can see from this draft that was circulated). *Given her background…

> *Given her background/race, we can't actually rule out the possibility that she got carried through the ranks by AA.

This sort of racism has no place on Hacker News. @dang is this the sort of commentary that is allowed to let stand?

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#68

Post by amanaplanacanal »

bra-ket wrote: post #65
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here is Jeff Dean's letter sent to the Google Research team with the details of what actually happened: : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f2kYWDXwhzYnq8ebVtuk9CqQ ... You choose to trust the words of the man that did the firing vs. the corroborated stories of dozens of Google Brain researchers that contradict his corporate messaging. Don't take corporate's word as "what happened:" that's about as naive as takin…

>"corroborated" stories of dozens It's a "boy who cried wolf" for me. I've seen these activists promoting lies to us the entire summer of protests for completely made-up causes. I've seen them distorting facts and pushing misinformation through media. I've also seen them bullying people via social media 'witch hunts', which is happening now with Jeff Dean, Nando de Freitas and whoever stands in their way. The whole a…

By “these activists” you are referring to the Google brain researchers? Or somebody else?

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#69

Post by bra-ket »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #68
bra-ket wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"corroborated" stories of dozens It's a "boy who cried wolf" for me. I've seen these activists promoting lies to us the entire summer of protests for completely made-up causes. I've seen them distorting facts and pushing misinformation through media. I've also seen them bullying people via social media 'witch hunts', which is happening now with Jeff Dean, Nando de Freitas and whoever stands in their way. The whole a…

By “these activists” you are referring to the Google brain researchers? Or somebody else?

I refer to the so-called SJWs ("social justice warriors"), some of them work or worked at Google like Gebru and her most vocal supporters. Others organized BLM protests for various fake causes during the summer. It's a new activism fad they primarily use to draw attention to themselves.

Not a single one of these people care about objectivity nor reason. They're the religious of the new age. It's disgusting to watch research scientists behave in this way. It calls into question the validity of their research.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#70

Post by Traster »

I think a lot of the commentary is incredibly naive about the chain of events. It may be that this researcher was a complete arsehole, who despite this had managed to climb to a well respected position in Google and within the community in her area of expertise.

However, I think it's much more likely her toxic behaviour is a direct result of her being put into an extremely difficult position by her employer. Her job is to publish research on the ethics of the AI work that Google is doing. But by the sounds of it, Google want to block her from actually publishing anything critical. It would be one thing to say that her work was unsound, but that doesn't really seem to have happened. Instead there seems to be the classic corporate pocket veto. They don't want her publishing something critical, but they also want the PR of having respected AI ethics researchers. So they don't say she can't publish critical work, they just won't let her publish critical work. And when she asks why she can't publish critical work... well she can publish critical work Google has always been very clear that she's free to publish critical work. So she can publish the work? No. No you can't publish the work. That would make me pretty crazy too. I don't she's handled it well, but at the end of the day she's a person and she's facing her job basically being taken from her (and arguably finding out she's been a useful idiot for quite a while).

It's pretty clear here that Google wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to tell the world that it's got respected scientists doing research into the ethics of their AI work, but they don't actually want researcher to do research about the ethics of their AI work because a lot of what they're doing is unethical.

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