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Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

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Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#21

Post by bpodgursky »

vfclists wrote: post #18
Analemma_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the synthesis of both of these narratives goes like this: Google had been wanting to get rid of Gebru for a while, for both good reasons (based on her emails and tweets she does indeed seem like an incredibly toxic personality and I sure wouldn't want to work anywhere near her) and bad (retaliation against the lawsuit she filed last year, which is both unlawful and incredibly unethical). They picked this pape…

What exactly does toxic mean if she has the sympathy of her coworkers? Toxic to management, embarrassing to her line managers or toxic to the colleagues she co-produces her work with? Was she toxic to the company's profits, toxic to the company's profits, or both?

She has the (public) sympathy (of some fraction) of her direct (subordinate) team.

You can have the loyalty of a couple of close coworkers and still be toxic for the company as a whole, if you don't have professional interactions with other teams, or with your own managers.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#22

Post by convery »

Including this line from the previous NYT article as some seem to be confused about firings: "The company responded to her email, she said, by saying it could not meet her demands and that her resignation was accepted immediately" - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researc...

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#23

Post by totorovirus »

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues?

I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some other topics. And Gebru is doing exactly that in Google.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#24

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

bpodgursky wrote: post #21
vfclists wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does toxic mean if she has the sympathy of her coworkers? Toxic to management, embarrassing to her line managers or toxic to the colleagues she co-produces her work with? Was she toxic to the company's profits, toxic to the company's profits, or both?

She has the (public) sympathy (of some fraction) of her direct (subordinate) team. You can have the loyalty of a couple of close coworkers and still be toxic for the company as a whole, if you don't have professional interactions with other teams, or with your own managers.

Last I saw the internal petition supporting her was at above 1,200.

Stereotyping is doing a lot of work here, driving people's assumptions about Gebru.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#25

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

nmfisher wrote: post #15
Analemma_ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the synthesis of both of these narratives goes like this: Google had been wanting to get rid of Gebru for a while, for both good reasons (based on her emails and tweets she does indeed seem like an incredibly toxic personality and I sure wouldn't want to work anywhere near her) and bad (retaliation against the lawsuit she filed last year, which is both unlawful and incredibly unethical). They picked this pape…

It’s abundantly clear that Google was itching to get rid of her. They probably couldn’t believe her luck when she (stupidly) tried to bully them with not just a threat of resignation, but an actual statement of “I will resign on date XXX”. I also don’t believe that Google would have done this for no reason (given her behaviour during the LeCunn incident) so I’m sympathetic towards Google’s conduct. If Gebru had simpl…

I don’t believe anyone has claimed she said “I will resign on date XXX.” The wording I think she and Dean have said she used was “or I will work on a last date” or something. As in “or I’ll work on figuring out what my last date at google will be.”

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#26

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #24
bpodgursky wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She has the (public) sympathy (of some fraction) of her direct (subordinate) team. You can have the loyalty of a couple of close coworkers and still be toxic for the company as a whole, if you don't have professional interactions with other teams, or with your own managers.

Last I saw the internal petition supporting her was at above 1,200. Stereotyping is doing a lot of work here, driving people's assumptions about Gebru.

I mean, there’s no counter petition (nor should there be) so it’s pretty tough to know whether those 1,200+ are representative.

Where I work, if someone is ousted, people might talk about the person’s toxicity or whatever got them fired one on one or in small groups, in a pretty off the record kind of way.

I’d bet the people who agree with the petition think it’s representative and the people who disagree think it’s not representative (“people are generally like me” is a reasonable prior).

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#27

Post by britch »

totorovirus wrote: post #23

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues? I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some oth…

I'm not seeing the connection between your comment and the Gerbu's firing.

As I understand it Gerbu was hired as an academic to do research into AI ethics (her field of study). She was fired, in part, due to a disagreement around the contents of a paper she was publishing.

Where is the sidewalking into engineering matters?

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#28

Post by anu7df »

totorovirus wrote: post #23

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues? I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some oth…

If you don't know her qualifications outside of ethical AI, you can't possibly know if "Gebru is doing exactly that in Google" People's motivations and ambitions vary. She may be very skilled in all things AI and yet choose the role she had and choose that hill to die on.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#29

Post by roenxi »

Analemma_ wrote: post #11
hpoe wrote: post #10

It seems to me like we have two different people arguing about 2 (maybe 3) completely different things when it comes to this Gebru situation. 1 - Google fired Gebru for trying to push a paper that presented google in a negative light. Doing so by creating special magic policies for her and then telling her she was fired. The concern in this case appears to be the fact that Google is suppressing criticism and ignoring…

I think the synthesis of both of these narratives goes like this: Google had been wanting to get rid of Gebru for a while, for both good reasons (based on her emails and tweets she does indeed seem like an incredibly toxic personality and I sure wouldn't want to work anywhere near her) and bad (retaliation against the lawsuit she filed last year, which is both unlawful and incredibly unethical). They picked this pape…

> ...based on her emails and tweets she does indeed seem like an incredibly toxic personality and I sure wouldn't want to work anywhere near her...

I agree I wouldn't want her reporting to me, but is it really that hard to fire someone in California? From the outside Google management seems to endorse solidly left-leaning politics, so while anything is possible it seems unlikely that they objected to her views or activism. If they think she is toxic, it follows that they likely had actual reasons - and if there are actual reasons someone is a bad employee then they can be fired in my experience.

That lends some credence to the retaliation theory. If they can't expel her for good reasons, grab the first half-baked opportunity.

Re: Google CEO pledges to investigate exit of top AI ethicist

#30

Post by warriorstar »

totorovirus wrote: post #23

Anyone getting tired of those toxic PC enthusiasts who stirs a fight in a team accusing its leadership for being incorrect on sensitive issues? I don't know if Gebru actually qualifies aside the matters of ethical AI. In my experience those people who work in engineering who sidewalks into some non-engineering matters often lack skills to compete where most do, and decided to leverage their incompetency with some oth…

You can't possibly be for real. You don't know her qualifications, so you assume she doesn't have any. Then you come up with a straw-man of "non-engineers lacking skills" and assign that to her! You're more willing to assign traits you made up to her than look up what she's actually capable of!
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