Bret Victor on working at Apple. • Hacker News Board

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#51

Post by Retric » Wed, May 11, 2011, 1:47 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #29

unwind wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to provide a counter-point, from a usability point of view I found that article terrible. On the 1920 pixels wide screen at work, more than half the horizontal width became buttons (previous and next). As soon as the mouse pointer was outside the white background for the linked-to article, a click lead to navigating away from the article. It took me at least two or three times of wondering where the fsck the art…

Who cares about the usability of this site. It's not done to be user friendly but rather to be explorable.

I do. That site is so bad, I ignored the content and moved on.

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#52

Post by ThomPete » Wed, May 11, 2011, 2:09 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #51

ThomPete wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares about the usability of this site. It's not done to be user friendly but rather to be explorable.

I do. That site is so bad, I ignored the content and moved on.

That is your loss for sure.

It's probably one of the most interesting sites by any single person out there.

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#53

Post by tsycho » Wed, May 11, 2011, 2:12 PM UTC

redfloatplane wrote: post #14

The title really should be changed to reflect the actual message (or lack of one). Nowhere in the post does he say that he didn't have a good time working at Apple. Nowhere does he advise not working there (like the title suggests). From what I infer, anyway, his actual message is that he can't show what he worked on at Apple - not that it's a bad place to work.

Well, he does seem to regret working there a lot.

From http://worrydream.com/#!/Freedom

"Are you free yet?

I declared my freedom on November 1. Apple has a depository where you drop off your soul for the duration of your employment. I went to retrieve it, and they gave it back to me scuffed, bruised, deflated, but hopefully still in working order."

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#54

Post by space-monkey » Wed, May 11, 2011, 2:43 PM UTC

follower wrote: post #17

nl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm.. no they don't Many companies encourage people to talk about their work. See, for example, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Twitter etc. Obviously they have some restrictions - but nothing like Apple.

Google certainly doesn't encourage people to talk about their work--it's one of the things that puts me off the thought of working there.

http://www.google.com/events/io/2011

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#55

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Wed, May 11, 2011, 2:51 PM UTC

thristian wrote: post #50

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #45

Man signs contract containing NDA before starting work then seems to object to the fact that he's being held to an NDA. If he made a mistake surely it reflects on him rather than Apple? If you don't like the terms, don't sign the contract. If he's good enough to get a job at Apple I suspect it wasn't his only option.

I'd guess he expected a 99% failure rate in exchange for a few highly polished gems that might be featured in a MacWorld keynote, or at the very least make it into a shipping product he could show off to his family and or friends. I think anyone should be allowed to feel disappointed at a 100% failure rate over three years, no matter how many NDAs they signed.

He was working in highly conceptual R&D, he could have worked there for decades and never had anything reach the public in any recognisable form, let alone make a MacWorld keynote.

If you want public recognition it's not a great area to work in regardless of the company.

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#56

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Wed, May 11, 2011, 2:55 PM UTC

space-monkey wrote: post #54

follower wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google certainly doesn't encourage people to talk about their work--it's one of the things that puts me off the thought of working there.

http://www.google.com/events/io/2011

There are 25,000 Google employees, how many of them do you think are attending IO (total attendance 5000), let alone speaking there.

That's a stage managed corporate event announcing new products and initiatives, it's no more a display of openness than Steve Jobs' keynotes.

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#57

Post by pnathan » Wed, May 11, 2011, 3:05 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #11

The post is almost content-free, we all know apple is secretive. But that website is a work of art, although it does crawl in chrome on my current-gen mac mini. If the guy doesn't like apple, I doubt he'd have much trouble finding work elsewhere. EDIT: re-reading, I see that he has.

Agreed. His website should be cause for Serious Hiring of the creator. It is innovative, inventive, and probably 5 years ahead of its time...

It crawls on my current-gen Macbook Pro (Chrome).

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#58

Post by smountcastle » Wed, May 11, 2011, 3:06 PM UTC

How long are such NDAs legally enforceable? If I sign the NDA and work at Apple for month am I prohibited from ever discussing ideas developed under NDA during that month? Has there been any meaningful test of this in court? What if Apple releases a product that incorporates aspects of the ideas but not all of them? Is Bret still unable to speak of his work (even if he limits it to the aspects publicly disclosed by Apple)?

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#59

Post by pnathan » Wed, May 11, 2011, 3:10 PM UTC

andrewguenther wrote: post #3

jamesaguilar wrote: post #2

If only someone had warned him of their secretive culture before he started.

Is a warning even necessary? I am fairly certain every company works this way.

I believe it is typical of engineering R&D firms that you can't talk about the details of what you do, or the products that are coming out.

Some of what can be produced is patents (describing the mechanisms), papers at conferences, and white papers.

Essentially, any special technology - anything providing competitive advantage - is kept under lock and key.

At least this is what I understand from talking and reading. Please feel to correct me with facts if I am wrong. :-)

Re: Bret Victor on working at Apple.

#60

Post by larsberg » Wed, May 11, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

andrewguenther wrote: post #3

jamesaguilar wrote: post #2

If only someone had warned him of their secretive culture before he started.

Is a warning even necessary? I am fairly certain every company works this way.

Nah, Microsoft wasn't like that. I've always joked that if you wanted to do corporate espionage, you should either ride one of the local commute lines (the 245) or just sit around pretending to drink coffee at the Redmond Town Center Borders.

I certainly used to regularly chat about bug burndown rates, joke about ship dates, and play that old game of "how many release candidates" with other managers. And I overheard more new feature discussions in public from folks on other teams than I can possibly imagine.

But, it was part of the culture. Love it or hate it, most members of the dev organization who are successful long-term at MSFT talk about their work all the time, everywhere they go. I've overheard heated arguments in public about Windows servicing patching strategies, and been in ones about such nits as whether the VS solution explorer should be on the left or the right in the default profile.