Elon Musk moves to Texas • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#631

Post by zests » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

chiyc wrote: post #562

rendang wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A belief that morality improves over time as you describe, aka whiggism/meliorism, is itself a kind of religious tenet of a particular set of worldviews (often called left, progressive etc). So I don't think one can say that rejecting that tenet places one outside of the Overton window of acceptability, while at the same time claiming tolerance of a wide range of viewpoints.

Rejecting progressivism or meliorism of course doesn't place someone outside that window of acceptability by itself. It depends on what a person is clinging onto. And I think it's still fair for a person to claim tolerance of a wide range of viewpoints while rejecting positions that are bigoted or deemed unacceptable. For someone who rejects meliorism, what moment in human history is the correct frame for evaluating…

I feel like the thread of the conversation has been lost. The answer here is that "no frame" is correct. If you simply believe what is morally fashionable then you likely would have had very objectionable "far right" beliefs in the 90s. This is the premise of http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#632

Post by knowaveragejoe » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #555

ddoolin wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crime in almost every category has gone down over the last decade. You have to be crazy to think gang activity has gotten worse over the same time period. Immigration is not the domain of the state. I'd argue that given the number of people here, the traffic could be a lot worse. I've personally seen worse gridlock on worse infrastructure in other states with less people. Even if you account for the days that fires a…

Crime and gang activity is increasing, especially in prisons where every yard is now active. Local street gangs sets have multiplied with the influx of people (many homeless), drugs, welfare and larger organized crime operations. Also recent policies decriminalized many acts and have led to rampant street crime in areas like SF and LA. CA provides sanctuary status for illegal immigrants, along with driver licenses, f…

> CA provides sanctuary status for illegal immigrants, along with driver licenses, free healthcare and other benefits paid for by tax-paying citizens.

I see these easily debunked anti-immigration talking points regularly elsewhere on the web in right-wing circles, but I'm surprised to see it on HN.

I encourage anyone interested in the reality of immigration(including the common myths like the above) to either read Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration, or watch a short talk on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGLhEW_uc

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#633

Post by tick_tock_tick » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

scsilver wrote: post #456

sdljfjafsd wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really any different from any other state, including California? Rural vs urban culture are completely different in every state in America. As Californians we still insulate ourselves from rural culture. The only difference in California those counties don't form the bulk of the electorate while in Texas they do. We still have the same problem: a cultural divide between rural and urban.

Yeas it's different. I'r invite you to drive through the rural west America, through arizona, nevada, wyoming and colorado. Even the rural areas of california have so many people. You will also noticr that the californians are almost all wearing masks even in the rural areas.

Where the hell are you driving 1 hour out the bay and you're in no mask land?

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#634

Post by gonehome » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

justapassenger wrote: post #601

gonehome wrote: post #213

I wish public rhetoric was less combative/twitter-like and more collaborative. Elon has built incredible companies doing incredible things. He's also made some stupid comments re: covid. SV political hostility towards technology companies and employees is frustrating. I wish the government was more aligned with helping these companies grow and things weren't treated as if they were so zero-sum (when they're not). I a…

> SV political hostility towards technology companies and employees is frustrating. I wish the government was more aligned with helping these companies grow Did you check how well those companies actually grew, dominated markets and made their employees millionaires? Sure, not everything is perfect and aligned to their liking, but calling a place that still actively creating biggest tech companies in the world a host…

It’s a mixed bag - a lot of stuff is really great (non-competes are illegal, at will employment, etc.)

The political rhetoric of the area is hostile to technology companies and employees though. A lot of blame is put on the tech industry for whatever problem is being discussed.

For example employees and tech companies are blamed for high housing costs because new jobs lead to more people living here (rather than blaming policy that restricts supply).

AB5 is hostile to ride sharing companies and was written mostly to target them.

This kind of blame comes up for pretty much everything.

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#635

Post by nondeveloper » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

For maybe 99% of Californians the decision to move or stay is tied to two factors: increasing cost of living and decreasing quality of life. I lived in the Bay Area from 2010 to 2020 and both factors worsened considerably in that time.

While Musk’s move may be an indicator of a kind it reflects on largely different factors than those weighed by most people. Most people don’t strain against state bureaucracies to develop innovative products and services.

Regulatory burden does reach Main Street, though. Ask anyone who’s ever run a restaurant in San Francisco or needed to get a state-issued license for, e.g., working in a nail salon if they think the government made it easier or harder for them to do business. Does this make the regulations wrong? No. Could they be easier to follow? Definitely.

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#636

Post by ddoolin » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #599

ddoolin wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crime in almost every category has gone down over the last decade. You have to be crazy to think gang activity has gotten worse over the same time period. Immigration is not the domain of the state. I'd argue that given the number of people here, the traffic could be a lot worse. I've personally seen worse gridlock on worse infrastructure in other states with less people. Even if you account for the days that fires a…

> Crime in almost every category has gone down over the last decade. This isn't true at all. Since prop 47, property crime has exploded across the state. Even violent crime rates are significantly higher in LA than they were in 2010.[2][3] In particular gang-on-gang violence may be moving the homicide rate lower, but predator-on-prey violence has shot up. Rapes have more than doubled in the past decade. > From Seattl…

https://openjustice.doj.ca.gov/exploration/crime-statistics/... is great for this, and separates arrests and crimes and covers the entire state, not just LA/SF.

Property arrests and crimes are actually down, while violent crime has increased.

Interestingly, just as a comparison, Texas has as many rapes despite having somewhere around 10M less people.[1]

1. https://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/19/cit2019.pdf

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#637

Post by sonotmyname » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #319

misiti3780 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the thing though - it's not just a "few extra points". By my calculation its 13.3% more living in California in state income tax savings alone. That is a huge amount of money for Elon, but is also a huge amount of money for people working on a SV salary. It could be more than a mortgage payment. There are probably additional savings with less regulation etc California is not a state anyone should want to do b…

That's a disingenuous representation of how much extra state income taxes are paid. 13.3% is the rate for single income above $1,000,0000. A richly paid SV worker making $500k single pays 8.75% to the state of CA effectively.[0] [0] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#6NtLs...

We're talking about Elon Musk here - effectively all of his income is going to be at the 13.3% rate

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#638

Post by x3iv130f » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #572

techsupporter wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My birth certificate says "Texas" across the top and people have been "fleeing California" to Texas for as long as I've been alive. There's nothing special about Musk; he just happens to be high-profile about it and managed to extract more from California before decamping to a "cheap" state than several of those who came before him. I disagree with your assessment that Texas has wide acceptance for opposing viewpoint…

It's been a massive windfall to people who have been homeowners for 40 years in California. High rents due to the fact that you're not allowed to build new housing, high property taxes paid by new residents, while old residents pay nothing, high income and sales taxes to paper over the gap in the budget left by the lack of property tax paid by longtime residents. The whole system has been optimized to milk as much mo…

That is a very succinct way to put it. I doubt it will be fixed in our lifetimes as there isn't enough willpower or trust in the state government to make the needed change.

People who want change are free to leave. Only when there are no other places to leave to will there be change.

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#639

Post by elindbe2 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #627

elindbe2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socializing what risk? What are you even talking about? Musk put his entire fortune from PayPal on the line for Tesla knowing that in all probability it would fail. It turned out well for him but it was still a huge risk he took. I would argue that the opposite is true. California wants a larger cut of profits from business activity within their borders without any risk on their part, or even having to provide better…

>> Musk put his entire fortune from PayPal on the line for Tesla knowing that in all probability it would fail. It turned out well for him but it was still a huge risk he took. For sure Elon Musk is a very smart guy and he works really hard and he knows how to deliver amazing products and his PR skills are amazing... That said, we can't deny that he got a lot of support from the US government. Without US government h…

> For sure Elon Musk is a very smart guy and he works really hard and he knows how to deliver amazing products and his PR skills are amazing...

And again, don't ignore the part where he used his entire PayPal fortune to build a company that he thought had a high probability of failure. That's key to this conversation about risk.

The government chose to take on the risk of providing subsidies in order to get the benefits it enjoys today due to Musk's efforts, which is a growing electric vehicle industry. That wasn't Musk's choice to socialize risk, it was elected officials'. And that choice has paid off well for everyone.

Re: Elon Musk moves to Texas

#640

Post by lowdose » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #547

mrits wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Tyler but have lived in Austin for 15 years. I don't mean to be argumentative but you seem to be comparing Small town Texas with "Big City" California. I've vacationed in smaller towns in California and the conservative nature of those areas remind me a lot of Tyler,Texas.

Your onto something, and I think another crucial detail is that the small, southern town I grew up in is more tolerant of gay folks now than the vast majority of big cities were 20 years ago. There's been such a massive shift in tolerance towards gay humans across the entire culture that comparing any place I go to NOW vs where I grew up WHEN I was a kid is a massive difference. Compared to 2020 Anywhere, 2000 Anywhe…

Finally but this such a young development it should be cherished by not taking it for granted.