Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

amusingplanet.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 122 posts

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#111

Post by microtherion »

themaninthedark wrote: post #93
Shacklz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army And this is where we differ - I think _your_ opinion is outdated ;) The services that you listed mostly do not require an "army", what exactly is camouflage gear & combat training good for with regards to helping with covid-related tasks (or any other "Katastrophenhilfe"-related endeavour)? The "Swiss army knife" metaphor is exactly what I so despise about…

Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders. >currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes…

> I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances.

Being Swiss, and having served in the army, I have a less optimistic view of its value. In particular, the professional officers it attracted tended to be mediocre at best.

> Organization, mindfulness

Armies in general have poor cost control, and an army at perpetual peace has even fewer repercussions to fear, so there is virtually no accountability. Your workforce can't quit because it's drafted, parliament sometimes gives you a higher budget than you asked for, because reasons, and you perennially plan for fictional wars that thankfully you never have to fight.

> and the ability to give and receive orders.

It's easy to give orders if your workforce can't quit and goes to prison if they don't follow the orders.

> What is wrong with having something that is common across generations and backgrounds that allows people to connect with each other?

This aspect, that (mostly) men of all backgrounds served together, was maybe the one positive thing about the army. But nowadays, a smaller part of each generation serves, so that seems to go away as well. And it should be possible to implement a common service for other purposes than an army.

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#112

Post by dsohn0 »

tosseuthansia wrote: post #57
hutzlibu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia about Monte Cassino "On 15 February American bombers dropped 1,400 tons of high explosives, creating widespread damage.[6] The raid failed to achieve its objective, as German paratroopers then occupied the rubble and established excellent defensive positions amid the ruins. "

What's often not told of the Battle of Monte Cassino is the destruction of a jewel of the West. To the Germans' credit, they offered not to take the monastery as a position if the Allies wouldn't bomb it. They only took the advantageous positions after it'd been reduced to ruble. The Germans also helped evacuate as much of the stuff inside as possible, moving it to the Vatican, where the monks trusted the Germans wou…

As a Jew I find this concept of german military honor during ww2 utterly repugnant. This fetishization of nazis is utterly sick, why don't you also give us examples of the honor of pol pots army or the honor of Argentina's military when they were disappearing people. Absolutely repugnant.

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#113

Post by StanislavPetrov »

mhh__ wrote: post #37
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #6

Looks like anyone wanting to invade is in for a rough patch, but maybe modern tech renders these types of things worthless. Considering what a rough time the US (and Russia) has had in Afghanistan, I suspect they'd still be fairly effective.

If you want to defeat the Swiss, and keep in mind what kind of enemy would want to do that, just start carpet bombing where the actual people live. That and they only have about 25 aircraft that could realistically do any good air defense work. The idea that the US would struggle against Switzerland is predicated on them not doing that, because they would've had to found a reason to invade in the first place.

There's a difference between being able to bomb Switzerland without facing much opposition and being able to occupy and control the country. I don't think anyone doubts our ability to invade Switzerland and squander endless blood and treasure in a fruitless occupation that ends in us leaving without having truly "beaten" anyone, ala Afghanistan, Vietnam, et all.

The whole point of the Swiss defense system is to make the country much more difficult and costly to invade, occupy and control than it could possibly be worth to an attacker, even if such a goal was eventually achievable. In this, history has proven them successful.

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#114

Post by geoff_sanders »

mementomori wrote: post #103

Curious. Let's say the Swiss military has been studying other conflicts and strategizing accordingly, but has not actually experienced any warfare in 200 years. Does the lack of actual experience in warfare put a force at a disadvantage to the forces that had experienced actual warfare?

To use a sports analogy, while game-time experience is valuable, it’s practice that wins games. Much of America’s military advantage is rooted in extensive, ongoing, and realistic training and exercises. Any country can train and practice, but to do so at operational scales and in a way that accurately portrays your adversary’s capabilities requires lots of money and accurate intelligence.

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#115

Post by esarbe »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #113
mhh__ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to defeat the Swiss, and keep in mind what kind of enemy would want to do that, just start carpet bombing where the actual people live. That and they only have about 25 aircraft that could realistically do any good air defense work. The idea that the US would struggle against Switzerland is predicated on them not doing that, because they would've had to found a reason to invade in the first place.

There's a difference between being able to bomb Switzerland without facing much opposition and being able to occupy and control the country. I don't think anyone doubts our ability to invade Switzerland and squander endless blood and treasure in a fruitless occupation that ends in us leaving without having truly "beaten" anyone, ala Afghanistan, Vietnam, et all. The whole point of the Swiss defense system is to make…

There were even secret plans to set up stay-behind resistance networks in case of an occupation [0].

There's good reason to assume that similar projects still exist.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projekt-26

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#116

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

hutzlibu wrote: post #48
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A castle gives you a hard time when you only have a gun. If the military has aircraft, missile launchers, and artillery, they'll be flattened before any fighting occurs. Plus it's a pretty easy target.

From Wikipedia about Monte Cassino "On 15 February American bombers dropped 1,400 tons of high explosives, creating widespread damage.[6] The raid failed to achieve its objective, as German paratroopers then occupied the rubble and established excellent defensive positions amid the ruins. "

If only 2 tons of that 1400 tons hit the target, was it the bombs that were defective, or the accuracy of the planes?

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#117

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

tosseuthansia wrote: post #57
hutzlibu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia about Monte Cassino "On 15 February American bombers dropped 1,400 tons of high explosives, creating widespread damage.[6] The raid failed to achieve its objective, as German paratroopers then occupied the rubble and established excellent defensive positions amid the ruins. "

What's often not told of the Battle of Monte Cassino is the destruction of a jewel of the West. To the Germans' credit, they offered not to take the monastery as a position if the Allies wouldn't bomb it. They only took the advantageous positions after it'd been reduced to ruble. The Germans also helped evacuate as much of the stuff inside as possible, moving it to the Vatican, where the monks trusted the Germans wou…

Remember, it's only a war crime if you lose...

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#118

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

dsohn0 wrote: post #112
tosseuthansia wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's often not told of the Battle of Monte Cassino is the destruction of a jewel of the West. To the Germans' credit, they offered not to take the monastery as a position if the Allies wouldn't bomb it. They only took the advantageous positions after it'd been reduced to ruble. The Germans also helped evacuate as much of the stuff inside as possible, moving it to the Vatican, where the monks trusted the Germans wou…

As a Jew I find this concept of german military honor during ww2 utterly repugnant. This fetishization of nazis is utterly sick, why don't you also give us examples of the honor of pol pots army or the honor of Argentina's military when they were disappearing people. Absolutely repugnant.

I think what the commenter is mentioning is about the individuals. Remember, Nazi Germany instituted a draft and had conscription. Not every German soldier was a Nazi. You can mention the honor of the individuals themselves without praising the regime that lorded over them.

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#119

Post by themaninthedark »

Shacklz wrote: post #106
themaninthedark wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders. >currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes…

> Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" This quote is so out of date, really. Humanity progressed so far just in the last couple of decades, but we're still supposed to prepare ourselves to smash each others heads in like we're some brutish barbarians? At some point, we should start acting like civilized adults and solve our conflicts by discussion, not by smashing each others head in. The t…

I look at how the world around me seems more polarized and divided with every passing day and I find I am unable to agree with you that we have progressed far.

But I do agree with you on the point that the training does not need to be with weapons, I would rather have some sort of mandatory Civilian Conservation Corp program than military service program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

Re: Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)

#120

Post by themaninthedark »

microtherion wrote: post #111
themaninthedark wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders. >currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes…

> I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Being Swiss, and having served in the army, I have a less optimistic view of its value. In particular, the professional officers it attracted tended to be mediocre at best. > Organization, mindfulness Armies in general have poor cost control, and…

I do think that mandatory service does not a good army make, I would rather have a mandatory Civilian Conservation Corps program that trained people in basic skills & trades as well as being a common experience for people to fall back on.
Post reply on HN