FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization • Hacker News Board

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#91

Post by wlesieutre » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

lbsnake7 wrote: post #30

When Facebook first went public, an older relative asked me if he should invest in Facebook. My only insight was being an internet user at the time and I said no, there was no reason that Facebook wouldn’t be another MySpace. Facebook's only value was their users and users were historically very finicky and moved around platforms at will. I argued that Facebook would make no money and wouldn’t be around in a couple o…

Bought all the platforms people were going to jump to.

The "Onvao Protect" traffic snooping VPN to identify what up and coming products people were using was one particularly shady part of this strategy.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#92

Post by annadane » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

SerLava wrote: post #74

SerLava wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, yeah Facebook probably bought Oculus thinking: -What if a lot of people use these in the future -What if they're really comfy when they get slim, and people use them all the time, even for essentially web browsing. -Later models can easily have internal and mouth facing cameras so you can smile at people in VR -Let's intimately observe the finest twitch of every expression felt by our users, peering deep into th…

I'm getting down votes here, does anyone really think Facebook wouldn't do this?

You're getting downvotes from apologists and shills

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#93

Post by gfodor » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

matchbok wrote: post #69

gfodor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems unlikely to me unless you think your children are going to be using computers with flat screens on walls like we do today.

VR isn't a thing, and won't be. Just like 3d TVs. Nobody outside of tech cares about it.

If you assume I'm talking about "VR" it shows you don't really have the same mental model of what they're trying to do at Oculus. They're creating a hardware/software proxy over your senses. This is the logical endpoint of computing. VR is just another transitional bridge.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#94

Post by easytiger » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

annadane wrote: post #87

Grazester wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the same note, a relative asked me the same thing when they IPO.I thought if Google could make money selling ads why couldn't Facebook. I bought in at IPO price for them. I sold for them about 2 years ago when the price was dropping due to privacy scandals.

Why the hell is HN so downvote happy?

Reddit is here. It has been a swift decline notable in the last year or so. Sadly. Even fairly uncontroversial assertions of fact are downvoted frequently

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#95

Post by CPLX » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

artemisyna wrote: post #70

Not a lawyer, but I'm really curious to see how this plays out. This case has a lot of confounding factors: * other companies/entities that can be considered "competitors" (Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn, etc) * the acquisitions in question (Instagram and WhatsApp) being approved by the suing entity (namely, the FTC) themselves back in the day I wouldn't be surprised if an outcome of this were to be say, limits against cr…

> However, having existing companies be forced to be spun out in their entirely... I have a hard time imagining that being the outcome, given the chilling effect it could have on the rest of the industry.

What's hilarious is that breakups and divestiture were considered a completely commonplace occurrence up until a generation ago. It was just a matter of course for the FTC and DOJ to deal with companies that had gotten too big or were engaging in questionable behavior and forcing them to break up into pieces.

This, of course, was generally a good thing. Then we just sort of stopped. Now we're at a point where your point of view, which is that this is "hard to imagine" is a completely reasonable one.

It shouldn't be though. The current situation of consolidation at the top of our economy is wildly unstable and harmful to workers, consumers, and fledgeling entrepreneurs alike, and we should never have let it get this out of control.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#96

Post by wlesieutre » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

minimaxir wrote: post #2

Key line: > The FTC is seeking a permanent injunction in federal court that could, among other things: require divestitures of assets, including Instagram and WhatsApp

Oculus too please!

I'm holding off on merging my Oculus and Facebook accounts as long as possible in hopes that someone tells them to get the hell out of here with that nonsense.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#97

Post by fishtacos » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #46

nickpp wrote: post #35

Monopoly of what? Some other social networks I use every day or so: Twitter, LinkedIn, TikTok and various forums and communities like this one, which in my mind are pretty similar to a social network. And since WhatsApp is a chat app, how about all the other chat apps I am using? iMessage, Slack, Teams. Does this action has any merit or is it just the usual political posturing and games?

Could the average Facebook user readily replace their use of Facebook with LinkedIn or TikTok? I am not a big user of any of those products, but I have the distinct impression that the answer is no.

From the FTC.gov[1]:

"The antitrust laws prohibit conduct by a single firm that unreasonably restrains competition by creating or maintaining monopoly power. Most Section 2 claims involve the conduct of a firm with a leading market position, although Section 2 of the Sherman Act also bans attempts to monopolize and conspiracies to monopolize. As a first step, courts ask if the firm has "monopoly power" in any market. This requires in-depth study of the products sold by the leading firm, and any alternative products consumers may turn to if the firm attempted to raise prices. Then courts ask if that leading position was gained or maintained through improper conduct—that is, something other than merely having a better product, superior management or historic accident. Here courts evaluate the anticompetitive effects of the conduct and its procompetitive justifications."

Does FB unreasonably restrain competition? (My answer is no)

Does FB have an alternative? (Mewe/Parler/Gab etc. - Mewe being the most direct alternative)

Then courts ask if that leading position was gained or maintained through improper conduct—that is, something other than merely having a better product, superior management or historic accident. - I'd say no.

I don't see anything this lawsuit stands on.

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#98

Post by desas » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

lkxijlewlf wrote: post #28

SerLava wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huge. I'm glad Zuckerberg is probably panicking.

I am unclear why he would be panicking.

Best case: there's a lot of legal kerfuffle and he is a multi-billionaire

Worst case: there's a lot of legal kerfuffle and he is a multi-billionaire

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#99

Post by _tulpa » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #18

> ... Facebook has maintained its monopoly position by buying up companies that present competitive threats and by imposing restrictive policies that unjustifiably hinder actual or potential rivals that Facebook does not or cannot acquire Imagine if FB was broken up like old school monopolies. That would definitely open field to a lot of smaller social media startups. I am worried about consumer privacy impacts becau…

> ... easier to regulate one giant company than a myriad of smaller ones

This sounds... incorrect.

Small players are much more vulnerable to fines and other penalties which range from 'cost of doing business' to 'slap on the wrist' for the big guys. And small ones don't seem to have much in the way of lobbying power or other direct influence over regulators.

Maybe more accurate to say that it's a bit harder to police lots of small players, but also that it's only the small players who produce good behaviour under regulation.

Re: FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization

#100

Post by dghlsakjg » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

ferdowsi wrote: post #86

If you work at Facebook it's time to seriously consider leaving to avoid damage to your own brand. Future employers are going to be scrutinizing your record and will ask you difficult questions about why you stuck by Facebook despite an overwhelming consensus that they are damaging to the global social fabric.

For better or worse, I really doubt this matters.

Even Bill Gates has cleaned up his reputation, let alone engineers who worked at MS in monopoly days. I don't think anyone that was there at the time is worried about how it reflects on them personally.