Live data from Hacker News

EU countries team up for semiconductor push

reuters.com

311–320 of 665 posts

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#311

So, as someone who used to be an engineer in semiconductor manufacturing facilities, this reminds me a lot of Sematech. That was a joint venture between American companies in the 90's, when there was a concern that we were falling behind Japan. I'm sure there will be people who try to claim otherwise, but my view from inside AMD (at that time still doing its own manufacturing) was that nothing much ever came out of S…

With the success of Apple M1, TSMC and Samsung will grow faster than Intel. Taiwan,Korea,Japan and US will control the semiconductor industry in the near future unless a game changing technology is introduced. Taiwan semiconductor companies's stocks are going banana after US slap sanction on SMIC. UMC stock has not changed much in years jumped 250% in last few weeks. (UMC invented foundry as service, then TSMC copy t…

I'm only half kidding when I say Apple doesn't consider themselves a US company. They consider them Apple.

It's not like they are cooperative like US automakers, and they have done China's will.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#312
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you're comparing revenue with market cap, which doesn't make much sense. Apple's recent annual revenue was ~275B.

I assumed the 440B was the market cap of the industry. Why would they mention revenue without specifying.

Why would they mention market cap without specifying? When financial articles say, "20% of the market", they're always talking about revenue by default.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Measuring sales isn't how you do that usually, market cap is the way to go (and then ASML dwarfs the rest). But even by sales seems like NL is leading.

> Why isn't Netherlands mentioned btw? What semiconductors companies did Germany , France and Spain built so far? If market cap was relevant you'd be, in a parallel conversation, be able to say: > Why isn't Telsa mentioned btw ? What cars have Ford, Toyota and Mercedes built so far ?

Well yes Tesla is currently stronger than Ford and Toyota, that's what the market decided. Is the market wrong? We'll see.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#314
post #297

Isn't the problem that European tech companies are sold to American companies? There are and have been countless of European chipmakers but they are usually bought by Americans. European companies grow to a certain size, and are then either sold to an established American company or relaunched from Silicon Valley with American investments. I think most of this is tax driven. American tax rules allow venture funds and…

Aren't offshore accounts also very popular in Europe?

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#315
This is an excellent point regarding a critical geopolitical matter. In some ways, it's not unlike the space race, or the race to acquire nuclear weapons. The nation that controls the most advanced chips can make the most advanced weapons and hold sway over the rest of the world.

One aspect that is less explored is the actual depth and breadth of the semiconductor supply chain. Moreover, that supply chain is bound with technical expertise at every level. You may have the fastest car at Le Mans, but you're not going to win without the best driver.

Chip design starts with design software. The most sophisticated software is made in the US. To use it, you need a variety of highly experienced designers of the right ilk (think neurosurgeon vs. cardiologist), supported by program management, organizational management, test and validation engineering and other disciplines. This synthesis of expertise and tools and equipment has to be at the highest level of capability all the way up and down the supply chain before you can get a 7nm chip to boot up.

Additionally, there are about 40 different types of process equipment used in chip fabrication. Every one of them requires dozens of product development engineers to design and build. Those teams rely on decades of both personal and organization experience to build on before they can produce tools that can, for example, apply a material like, say, tungsten, to a 12" slice of pure silicon in a layer that can be precisely measured in atoms, uniformly, across the 'wafer'.

Of all the 40 process tool types, the most complex work of science is the lithography tool made by ASML in the Netherlands. This thing produces the light needed to print the chip circuits at 7 nanometer geometries by emitting droplets of molten tin into a vacuum chamber and hitting the droplets with a 25,000 KW laser that vaporizes the tin and produces the light. It fires at 50KHz[0]. ASML has spent more than 20 years, employing 100s of engineers and scientists, in order to produce this wonder. There is no company (and certainly no government) on Earth that can catch up to ASML in any reasonable amount of time.

Next in the chip production chain is called 'Assembly' where the wafers are cut into individual chips and packaged into what you'd recognize. That node in the chain has it's own set of non-trivial equipment and expertise.

All of this is to say that there are vulnerabilities all up and down the supply chain, bouncing all over the planet. No one country has the technology to build state of the art chips from both the supply chain and expertise standpoints all within its own border. As soon as a nation has a deficit of one aspect of the overall technology required, that nation is no self sufficient.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIiqVrKDtLc

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#316

So, as someone who used to be an engineer in semiconductor manufacturing facilities, this reminds me a lot of Sematech. That was a joint venture between American companies in the 90's, when there was a concern that we were falling behind Japan. I'm sure there will be people who try to claim otherwise, but my view from inside AMD (at that time still doing its own manufacturing) was that nothing much ever came out of S…

It can work if it's countries who build a company together, like European countries created Airbus for example.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free healthcare, somehow reasonable housing prices outside of huge city centers, proximity to elderly parents, generally higher quality of life, to name few reasons.

Americans who are able to get jobs in the tech industry do not have to worry about expensive healthcare, at all. The US is very much a tale of two countries - but people here making a lot of money have a great quality of life.

Healthcare, sure- but what about reasonable housing prices?

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#318
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market. But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography? For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing a…

ASML is heavily reliant on the IP of Cymer an American company they bought in the last decade. And a great deal of their R&D is in the US, including things like software, measurement systems and sensors, robotics and automation, and so forth. What the US does best is quietly prop up international companies like ASML (and ARM, whose texas R&D center has been the leader for years) that wouldn't be able to hack it on th…

I don‘t like the vibe of your comment, but you are probably right...

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#320
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This push probably won't work because it's a push by politicians. They've managed to create conditions that are not suitable for the organic growth of the semi-conductor industry in Europe. Now they're slowly realizing that it's a problem, but it's a bit too late. You can't force an industry to appear and expect it to be competitive on a global scale. People are still going to be buying devices with chips manufacture…

Why on earth a productive company would move to Europe, where your revenues are automatically slashed by 50% in taxes, and you are constantly exposed to whimsical unfettered politicians.. They could start here. Why Facebook, Google, Amazon don't open massive headquarters in Paris, Madrid, Rome or Berlin, and they rather stick to UK and Switzerland? Also software managers won't move to Europe for the same reasons. Eur…

Do all European countries really have such a high tax rate or is it just a few places like France?
Post reply on HN