EU countries team up for semiconductor push • Hacker News Board

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#301

Post by eastendguy » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

arnaudsm wrote: post #193

ralfn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market. But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography? For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing a…

> It will end up in the pockets of friends and families of politicians that will be in "the management". 100% agree. Considering the incredible education system and engineers we have, the 2 only things restraining Europe from reaching Silicon Valley level are corrupt politicians and risk-adverse VCs.

"corrupt politicians"... really? Do you have any examples of large scale corruption inside EU? I don't. I think the majority of EU politicians are doing fine.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#302

Post by baybal2 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

yaantc wrote: post #218

y04nn wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my thought, ST Microelectronics is producing microchips in Grenoble, France, not far from where I live. And ST Micro chips are heavenly used in IOT. Maybe it's more than the semiconductor sector and includes telecommunications, networks equipment, phone/pc CPUs.

There is no need for advanced nodes for micro-controllers. Typically even advanced µC use 40nm, planar, where the TSMC leading node is 5nm FinFET. ST also does FD-SOI 22nm if I remember well, but that's the densest node they have and nowhere near the current state of the art at TSMC. The thing is, micro-controllers do not need advanced nodes. They don't have a lot of logic (it's all relative, but compared to a PC CPU…

There are eFlash offerings from at least TSMC, and GF at 28nm, they are just quite expensive.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#303

Post by rajesh-s » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

ralfn wrote: post #111

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market. But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography? For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing a…

I thought ASML manufacturing was in Connecticut, USA? I heard this from Ian Cutress on his channel https://youtu.be/JyocuFlQmTc

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#304

Post by formerly_proven » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

bazooka_penguin wrote: post #250

yaantc wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you refer to Cymer, they're doing the light source. A critical part of the system certainly, but not the whole. Then mirrors are done by Carl Zeiss in Germany. The blank photomask come mostly from 2 Japanses companies. On such complex systems there's room for many critical providers. Still, the integrated product comes from ASML.

Cymer is the linchpin of ASML's leadership. Other litho machine developers like Canon and Nikon almost dropped out of the industry because they couldn't develop functional EUV light sources. ASML got around that by buying Cymer. And ASML has multiple other R&D labs and offices in the US handling critical technologies like software and robotics

A quick Google search suggests ASML bought Cymer for the patent portfolio, while the tech didn't quite pan out. It seems like Trumpf is the current supplier of the EUV source.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#305

Post by globuous » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #292

batmansmk wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France: Thomson/Thales ($18B including software dev), STMicroelectronics ($9B). Germany: Infineon ($8B), Qimonda ($1B), XFab ($0.5B), Carl Zeiss ($1.2B). From Wikipedia. ASML ($10B), NXP ($10B), ASM ($1B).

Measuring sales isn't how you do that usually, market cap is the way to go (and then ASML dwarfs the rest). But even by sales seems like NL is leading.

> Why isn't Netherlands mentioned btw? What semiconductors companies did Germany , France and Spain built so far?

If market cap was relevant you'd be, in a parallel conversation, be able to say:

> Why isn't Telsa mentioned btw ? What cars have Ford, Toyota and Mercedes built so far ?

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#306

Post by vmchale » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

> I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it.

Lots of better stuff in the US, until recently when the stagnation in the US made it more feasible (and politics made things scarier).

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#307

Post by robotnikman » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

WhoCaresLies wrote: post #21

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

you don't want workers in IT, look at the USA, other than silicon valey (1 state), they all hire from India, and the salary from other states are comparable to what you find elsewhere in the world, including China you want researchers, and EU has ton of them ;)

I work in IT outside of the valley, and while I am not making SV money I am making enough to live comfortably and have good health coverage.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#308

Post by _visgean » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #278

Thimothy wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the unaware, Central Europe is a narrow band that comprises Czechs, Slovaks and Polish. Who can get very offended if you even dare to suggest that they belong to Eastern Europe.

The term "Central Europe" makes sense when talking about stuff common to Central Europe, in particular Germany. Otherwise, the term you want here is Eastern Europe. And yes, there is this particular kind of people who feel offended by this. Largely the same people who get offended by gay marriage. Why should we care?

No the term has a various definitions, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe the person

people might get offended because you are wrong.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#309

Post by petra » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #251

arnaudsm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will end up in the pockets of friends and families of politicians that will be in "the management". 100% agree. Considering the incredible education system and engineers we have, the 2 only things restraining Europe from reaching Silicon Valley level are corrupt politicians and risk-adverse VCs.

Also: - labor laws (very hard to fire people in many European countries) - lots of disjointed small-to-medium markets (with different laws and languages) make expansion on continental scale much harder than in the US

Disjoined markets aren't necessary such a big issue. Israel manages to do well, for example. Usually opening a US office is the common method overcoming that issue.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#310

Post by baybal2 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

ducktective wrote: post #275

yaantc wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need for advanced nodes for micro-controllers. Typically even advanced µC use 40nm, planar, where the TSMC leading node is 5nm FinFET. ST also does FD-SOI 22nm if I remember well, but that's the densest node they have and nowhere near the current state of the art at TSMC. The thing is, micro-controllers do not need advanced nodes. They don't have a lot of logic (it's all relative, but compared to a PC CPU…

> micro-controllers do not need advanced nodes...They don't have a lot of logic Why MCU-bound application logic are simpler than PC apps? If that is the case, we shouldn't have seen improvement in embedded MCUs in 20 years, yet every year the clocks are increasing, the flash/RAM size is doubling, ... I have a theory/fear that in future, the line between embedded-dev and web-dev would be blurred...

Given how eagerly all those GCP/AWS/AZUR "IOT frameworks" run out of memory on the most beefy microcontrollers a mortal can buy, I'm afraid, you are right.